for the recent axe grinders..

[Svenwulf]

i appreciate Cramer for the entertainment he offers. i respect him for his many accomplishments. from day one of viewing, i have had a self imposed moratorium on trading anything on the Cramer radar screen. i broke this rule once, and only because i had other reasons for the trade. i appreciate your effort to give newbies like myself a reality check. but after a point i am reminded of this article. take it for what it is worth, and keep up the debate!

How to recognize Stock bashers on Message boards, newsgroups and in chat rooms. its too long but you got to read it. LEARNING is a process and an evolution. Learning is not all fluff. Learning is a process of awareness and unfolding development; one must be willing to work at it though.
A year ago when I asked broker friends of mine if the internet message boards will have any affect on a stock. They ALL laughed at me and said those idiots having an affect on a stock!
A truth: IT IS EASIER TO SCARE PEOPLE INTO SELLING THAN IT IS TO INFORM PEOPLE INTO BUYING A STOCK.
Well I asked those same friends this last week, and the answer from all YES! message boards and ""shorts" (some) can manipulate with lies, and deceit.
Now think about that, you have elderly that invest and find their way to the message boards only to see false posts about "SEC Violations" and "Class action suits" or you have a Yuppie with a kid to put in college going to these message boards only to see posts by 15-20 (probably 5 or 6 under alias) "pack of shorts" posting the same false stuff about SEC Violations or lawsuits or "there's bad news coming out" ....what do you think they will do ?
It's easier to sell the stock and put the money into the bank for nervous people like the elderly and the Yuppie who needs college funds. THAT'S WHO THE PACK OF SHORTS PRAY ON AND DEPEND ON. They bet on a stock to go down-not up! Understand? And they have just as much money and risk as you. But they have the edge of fear, lies, falsehoods to post and pray on the nervous. Longs don't have that.
Lesson 1: Remember, BASHERS NEVER BASH A BAD STOCK. Watch the board for stocks with no potential. They never have any bashers. Bashers only go after stocks that are going upwards or have excellent potential to go up. Bashers get left behind, so they want to bring the price down.
Lesson 2: BASHERS ALWAYS BRING UP OLD NEWS THAT YOU HAVE HEARD MANY TIMES. New startup companies always have a few bits of bad news. The basher will post this over and over again. The stupid basher will try to make the old news a bit fresher to try to fool you.
Lesson 3: BASHERS POST MANY TIMES A DAY. They try to wear you out. They comment on everything, every other post, and can answer every question. THEY KNOW IT ALL! There is no positive comment they won't bash. They try to control the board. True longs may have to address the bashers or they will appear to the newbies as being the people with all the information.
Lesson 4: BASHERS WILL LIE TO YOUR FACE. Never trust a basher. The truth on startup companies is that many mistakes are made and losses happen. The basher will try to make you believe all startup companies make a profit, release financials every quarter and all aspects of the business run smoothly. THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE BASHERS LIE TO YOU. Startup companies can go years without profits, financials and good business, this is the nature of the beast.
Lesson 5: The bashers know YOU CAN'T VERIFY THEIR STATEMENTS. That's why they make the statements they do.
Lesson 6: The bashers PLAY ON YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. They can lie about information and you couldn't know the difference (unless you have done your assessment of the company and know the truth and facts).
Lesson 7: Bashers play on your lack of patience. YOU have held a penny stock for a while. You knew it will be a big penny stock someday, but the BASHER CAN GET TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE TIRED OF WAITING FOR YOUR GAIN . That's when the basher is best. You are tired. You have forgotten the goal for the penny stock was to hold it for one year. The basher is bothersome, so you dump it on a bad day. Some others also dump. Then you get mad for your loss and return to let everyone know how mad you are. Then you turn into a basher as well. THE BASHER HAS WON, AND GAINED A NEW PARTNER TOO, to be able to get in at a great price.
Lesson 8: BRING THE PRICE DOWN. That is the basher's job. The truth is not important. Lies are the norm. Post continuously on the board every day. They are trying to hit the newbies visiting the board. They are trying to wear out the longs on the board. They do whatever it takes to wear the longs out.
Lesson 9: BASHERS WILL TRY TO CREATE DOUBT AND GET YOU TO RESEARCH ITEMS THAT THEY KNOW WILL LEAD TO THE CREATION OF DOUBT IN YOU AND IN OTHER STOCKHOLDERS. A typical trick of an advanced basher is to propose that there is a potential "problem" because "we" don't have the facts on a particular subject. The basher dares someone in the group to find out the answer to the question. The basher already knows the answer; the basher already knows what will be found. The power of this tactic is that the basher is now in control of the actions of the stockholders; the basher has you, the stockholder doing HIS/HER due diligence and when you, the stockholder come back to the group with a questionable finding then the basher gains credibility. What to do??? Solution??? Well, I think it's important to find answers but on your own terms. I actually pick up the phone and call the company and talk to the investor relations person or the CEO until I get a satisfactory answer. The problem here is that the advanced basher has you doing his bidding and his work; you have essentially joined his ranks. So, develop your own little Due Diligence package and answer questions by placing the information into the package and referring all new investors to read the answers to questions raised in the Investor Information package but DON'T GET INTO A CONVERSATION WITH THE BASHER REGARDING THE TOPIC. THAT IS WHERE YOU LOSE. DON'T CONVERSE WITH THE BASHER; ANSWER INDIRECTLY; DON'T USE THE BASHERS NAME; DON'T GET INTO A PERSONALITY CONTEST.

[Svenwulf]

..wouldn't all fit...

A BASHERS HANDBOOK: know the enemy who wishes to steal your money! Do not underestimate a bashers influence on a stock. The Pro's are good at what they do and what they do is profit from your losses. Below is their "hand-book" so to speak. Learn from it or donate your money to those who make an organized plan to steal your money!
BASHERS DO THE FOLLOWING:
1. Be anonymous
2. Use 10% fact. 90% suggestion. The facts will lend credibility to your suggestions.
3. Let others help you learn about the stock. Build rapport and a support base before initiating your bashing routine.
4. Enter w/ humor and reply to all who reply to you.
5. Use multiple ISP's, handles and aliases.
6. Use two (2) or more aliases to simulate a discussion.
7. Do not start with an all out slam of the stock. Build to it.
8. Identify your foes (hypesters) and the boards "guru" Use them to your advantage. Lead them do not follow their lead.
9. Only bash until the tide/momentum turns. Let doubt carry it the rest of the way.
10. Give the appearance of being open minded.
11. Be bold in your statements. People follow strength.
12. Write headlines in caps with catchy statements.
13. Pour it on as your position gains momentum. Not your personality.
14. Don't worry about being labeled a "basher". Newbies won't know your history.
15. When identified put up a brief fight, then back off. Return in an hour unless your foe is a weak in reasoning powers.
16. Your goal is to limit the momentum of the run. Not to tank the company or create a plunge in the stock; be subtle and consistent.
17. Kill the dreams of profits, not the company or the stock.
18. Use questions to create critical thinking. Statements to reinforce facts.
19. DO NOT LIE, DO NOT NAME CALL and DO NOT USE PROFANITY.
20. Encourage people to call the company. 99% won't. They'll take your word for claims made. If they do call you can always find something that is inaccurate in how they report their findings.
21. Discourage people for taking the companies word for anything. Encourage them to call the company. They won't out of laziness.
22. If the companies history/PR's are negative constantly point to that. Compile a list of this data prior to beginning your efforts.
23. If the price rises blame it on the hype or the PR, temporary mass reaction, the market, etc. Anything but the stock itself.
24. If other posters share your concerns, play on that and share theirs too.
25. Always cite low volume, even when it's not.
26. Three or four aliases can dominate a board and wear down the longs.
27. Bait the hypesters into personal debates putting their focus/efforts on you and not the stock or facts. Divert their attention from facts. Show them the facts from a "different angle."
28. Promote other stocks that would-be investors can turn to instead of the one your bashing.
30. Do not fall for challenges on the "values" of what you are doing, it's a game and you are playing it with your own rules.
GRADE YOUR FAVORITE BASHER:
Advanced Basher:
Will join the message board early and actually "pump" the stock with positives; this basher is very intelligent, has the facts of the company, actually helps longs with Due Diligence and generally gets the confidence of the stockholders. Then, when the stock hits their price, the tone will change and they will start asking longs to check into this and check into that. The seeds of doubt are being planted. This basher will then start using all the tactics listed on this page to create seeds of doubt. ALWAYS LOOK AT THE PROFILE OF A PERSON YOU SUSPECT. ASK WHAT STOCKS THEY'VE "SUPPORTED" IN THE PAST AND CHECK OUT THE MESSAGE BOARD. An honest person will have a positive track record that can be followed. I strongly believe that a contrary view is needed but this person is out to steal your money and does it by deception and creates fear after gaining confidence! BEWARE, this is the most clever basher and the hardest to spot.
Grade A Basher:
Posts lots of old news, responds to all positive posts with a negative side. Never responds to being called a basher, never posts on another board. Can spend up to 80 hours a week bashing a stock.
Grade B Basher:
Very good way with words, always claims to be your "friend" taking the positive poster into confidence, never posts on another board, spends about 60 hours a week.
Grade C Basher:
Spends less time than the others but is somewhat effective and gets a C grade due to getting excited when bashers rules say not to get excited, spends about 40 hours a week.
Grade D Basher:
Needs to learn the basics about being convincing when making a negative statement. Spends a good amount of time working the stock, maybe 20 hours a week. Grade F Basher: A complete idiot, most readers are not convinced he knows anything about stocks in general. The type that says a stock "sucks", but gives no rationale, shows up every so often but no regular schedule.
WHY BASH?: MONEY (the usual reason), SPORT, ENTERTAINMENT. Some bashers are compelled to bash because they are inherently a part of the dark side of life so they must do it. It's a sad fact but never the less, a fact. It's life so you must learn how to deal with it or become a victim!
LEARN ABOUT HOW STOCK BASHERS WORK: how they are paid: (this was written by a basher) I know the following from a "friend" who needed extra money. I never answer a basher directly because I then become a basher's little money machine. IGNORE THEM FOLKS...how bashers are paid: When you REPLY to bashers you give them an opportunity to earn 5-7 bucks. The service agreement they enter into with their employer states their messages will be monitored for content, profanity, lies, etc. but Money Manager's and the like don't have the time to check all their bashers messages. Only occasional spot checks are done. Those who manage the basher will generally read the headlines to see if a basher is replying to other posters by name. That tells them the basher isn't just "posting blindly" or repeating the same message over and over since they won't pay for those. A basher will attempt to milk three to five replies per post at one to two dollars each. This way the basher spreads negative influence to as many stockholders as possible. A basher will create this discussion thread because it takes less time reading more messages than is necessary. This ultimately allows the basher more time to post and make money. In general, NEVER ENGAGE A BASHER. Make them read all the posts and think up ways to enter the discussion.
NEVER ENGAGE A STOCK BASHER; if you do so then YOU BECOME THE BASHER'S AID!

Read the news, do your own homework and make your own decisions. Get real time quotes and follow the stock for a couple of weeks. Due Diligence is key here. Know that there will be a time when the stock runs up which will be followed by the Bashers and those that missed the boat. The bashers will trash the stock by saying such things as "it's a Pump and Dump" and "the company is lying" and deceiving. There goal is to scare off newbies and potential new investors by "shaking" you out of your shares. Take the time to confirm your Due Diligence, ,trust your own judgment and believe in yourself, pick your point of return or loss and live with it. Don't listen to hype or bashers and live by the rules you have created.

[spanky]

Dude,
You nailed watchTVgetpoor to a T!

And there are too many convenient 'new members' to this site that stick to TV's threads. Some characters agree with him, others disagree... all should be ignored.

[aiki14]

Dude,
You nailed watchTVgetpoor to a T!

And there are too many convenient 'new members' to this site that stick to TV's threads. Some characters agree with him, others disagree... all should be ignored.

You think I am playing into it? My ego might be getting the better of me. Chris, I trust you'll give me an honest opinion. You too Spanky.

[Svenwulf]

i will say it is entertaining. i did not mean to imply you were playing into it with my post, i was just reminded of the article by the tactics they are working tonight. thought us newbs could do with a little of the other side. if anything i think we have all been adding to the flames- we cant possibly expect to convince these folks (or single person?) that this board is about collaboration and the people who frequent. and that ought to reveal a bit about their intentions of posting here. if you've followed this board for more than a week, you can see how little we discuss Cramer. if i really had my tin foil hat on, i'd even joke it was Cramer here to focus the discussion back upon him, but the new pills the doctor prescribed are helping with those tendencies.

even with the "one hand tied behind your back" slant to your proposed competition's playing field, i have every confidence you will slaughter this guy. my only question would be is pride worth the distraction? i dont want to sound all zen, because i know i have done worse. but granny used to say- dont try to teach a pig how to dance- you'll end up dirty and annoy the pig. she never could get sayings correct..

[Svenwulf]

so i am still trying to figure out who would benefit financially from persuading recent Cramer converts that JC is a snake oil salesman. that he might be, but Cramer's enemies would surely not warn the unsophisticated prey these posters claim to hope to warn. if i know the street, they'd be selling as much as they could in AH. perhaps they have another advisory/ subscription/ book to sell in competition to Cramer? have yet to see anything resembling advice, links, picks.. maybe too soon for the pitch? im serious... what is the motivation here? ideas? and where has Thierry been? i like he runs an open forum, but maybe he needs to start a new area "bag on Cramer- members whine about how Cramer is right only a bit more than half the time."

[aiki14]

so i am still trying to figure out who would benefit financially from persuading recent Cramer converts that JC is a snake oil salesman. that he might be, but Cramer's enemies would surely not warn the unsophisticated prey these posters claim to hope to warn. if i know the street, they'd be selling as much as they could in AH. perhaps they have another advisory/ subscription/ book to sell in competition to Cramer? have yet to see anything resembling advice, links, picks.. maybe too soon for the pitch? im serious... what is the motivation here? ideas? and where has Thierry been? i like he runs an open forum, but maybe he needs to start a new area "bag on Cramer- members whine about how Cramer is right only a bit more than half the time."

If I may theorize on the motivation of these folks.
1) A person who lost money on a Cramer pick, and has no other way of striking out. The folks that come here to bash never seem to admit this, maybe their ego's don't allow them to admit they lost on a play.
2) A general curmudgeon, who has nothing good to say about anything generally and has found a place to vent against a popular figure. This seems doubly possible in a lot of cases because of how forward Jim is. He's an easy target because he's so high profile.
3) A loyal dissenter. Someone who likes Jim generally but has a few bones to pick. Not too many of these so far, at least not in the basher department.

Unfortunately, with very few exceptions, they couch their true motives in invective, and they use circular logic to back up their arguments. They also have a disproportionate tendency towards selective deafness. I am reticent to post these feelings since I would prefer not to entice them over to this side of the forum.

[spanky]

Aiki,
I'll admit I have spent too much time responding to these multiple bashers. I think it's great you are willing to take him/them on to unravel their boasting. But Sven's notes just reminded me that I was playing into their hands by responding to them and pushing the threads back to the top of the 'new posts' stack.

In fact, I'm really getting bored of it and would really rather have TCG return and help me with some of the TA questions I have posted lately, and provide some of the great stock recommendations he provides. And I haven't seen Mad Girl in a long time either.

I came here to see what others thought of Cramer. I continue to log on to learn about TA, short-term trading, and where people get their ideas. I want to discuss stocks, sectors, what is strenghtneing and what is not. I have allowed myself to be distracted by one or two guys who have started about 10 character IDs so that they can stage both sides of bashing conversations and keep the bile at the top of the "new posts" stack.

In fact, one of the multiple personalities actually accused TonyM to be watchTV, then some of the other multiple personalities chimed in and accused Tony of being Jack24. It's all deception, suspicion, deceit. A Navy buddy of mine used to always say "deny everything, make counter-accusations, lie, lie, lie!" This fits it to a T.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that most of these new 'members' all have about the same start date, the same voice (writing style), the same pattern of participating only in the bashing threads, and stirring the pot by posting both sides of the conversation with the same. The run up their message count by posting fluff to get 'valued contributor' status, and launch many more newbie accounts so that they can pose as experienced people explianing why Cramer sux to the newbies... It's been entertaining, but it's getting old.

I personally hope that if we ignore them they will go away to another chat site and stir things up there, and we can get back to discussing trading, stocks, and try to help each other find ideas that will increase our gains.

Aiki, you are going great. Don't get my message wrong. I think a lot of us have been trying to reason with the new cast of characters. The problem is that this is not a new group of members ready to learn; it's one or two jerks trying to derail our progress.

I agree with Sven's comment though -- how does anyone profit from this? That's the part I can't quite figure out, unless they are setting the stage for a rival TV show to pose against "Mad Money".

[timsuha]

you're right, spanky, I am now going into ignore mode for cornerz, watchtv, and jack24. Tony M seems somewhat credible, but if it came out that he was a personality, I'd laugh all the same.

[Svenwulf]

you're right, spanky, I am now going into ignore mode for cornerz, watchtv, and jack24. Tony M seems somewhat credible, but if it came out that he was a personality, I'd laugh all the same.

i am pretty sure i can vouch for tony.

maybe the others are neil cavuto?

[safeman]

Interesting stuff for a newbie to read. I still don't quit understand who profits by bashing a stock. Short sellers? People holding put options?

[Svenwulf]

Interesting stuff for a newbie to read. I still don't quit understand who profits by bashing a stock. Short sellers? People holding put options?

these are all possibilities. also parties interested in acquiring the stock for sale at a later, increased price. but really i don't know if paid bashers even exist. with the ready, if not willing manipulation of the majority of financial press, i wonder who but the lowest on the food chain would be interested in their services.

from personal experience, i know the temptation of trying to warn future investors of the perils involved with a certain company. and this is always motivated from a past loss on the position. so who, really, would be posting negative commentary about a company on a board? let alone bashing a talking head (and foot brace/ cast?) like a Cramer?

maybe its not cavuto, and its that guy blodget!

[aiki14]

Like everything else, first look to money then to ego and it's probably both. These guys took a money hit on a Cramer pick, their ego's won't let them admit they screwed up, so they blame him. Then those same ego's won't let them admit they fell victim so they go on a crusade to "help" others who aren't smart enough to see, while denying they ever fell victim themselves. They take the psychosis so far they may actually convince themselves they are helping people, even though those of us watching can see they are only pathetically licking the wounds of their apparently fragile ego's. It's sad actually, I see their personal attacks as like being bitten by an injured kitten who reflexively strikes out as you try to pick it up to help it. You don't hate that kitten, you feel sorry for it. It's also senseless to explain to the kitten you are only trying to help it, it won't understand, it's hurt and frightened and isn't capable of the thought necessary to comprehend it's situation.

[JT914]

Ah man Now you even made me realize..

Darn I was just baffled how those two idiots could be so intent on bashing cramer I just could not make any sense out of it..
I just figured they both bought coldwatercreek or something alike and lost big.

I too will ignore those screwballs as I feel like a chump now.

Sven you are OK in my book, always quick witted and aiki14 you seem to be a trusted sole.

[safeman]

In line with this reasoning, learning to accept the fact that we cannot be right 100% of the time should be at the top of all investors agendas.Keeping losses small should be tight up there too!! I try to keep my bad picks to an 8-10% loss.
William O'neil teaches no more than 8% but I find this too restrictive at times.
By the way, thanks svenwolf for the article, there is a lesson in there about being faithful to your long positions that I found helpful.

[Ghost]

Yeah, who'd ever think somebody'd actually get angry at an expert who's stock picks tank...Go figure.