Iraq is the biggest mistake of US's history [Archive]

NATHAN LLOYD

07-02-2006, 10:30 PM

Who cares ? I don't , your solider rape story is you yrying to justify pulling out of Iraq . It does not matter if you hate Bush , Hate the war , Hate that we are their . Guess what , we are their . Everything else does not matter . If we leave to soon who will assume the power vacuum . Iran , Al Sadr , who knows . The only thing that matters is that we keep people with self defeating anti-productive ideas like yourself out of power . For war or against war matters not to me . What we do now is what really matters , what has already happened is done and over .

It's not my rape story. I'm not that niave.
I don't hate Bush. I dislike the ones gullable enough to vote for the embarrassment.
I don't hate the war. I just don't agree with it.
Who cares about a vacuum created if we leave. We've never fixed anything over there. We've only made it more hostile than it was?
The longer we're there, the more people hate us and want to become terrorists against us.
You're just afraid to admit that you voted for a useless cause. Don't be so pathetic! Wake up!

bobwatford123

07-04-2006, 12:08 AM

Anyone who says the U.S. should just up and leave out of Iraq is extremely short sighted and foolish. That is just idiotic. As for the rape, it's not good. Happens everyday in the U.S. and Canada though. Not world news then.

Seamus

07-04-2006, 02:05 AM

I think it is unfortunate that the news needs to play up a single rape case in a country where 150,000 + US troops are trying their best to fix thousands of years of neglect.
Place the number of troops in perspective and think that there are not going to be a couple incidents of rape or wrongful killing? Take any town USA with the same population where there isn't a war going on and this number is probably eclipsed every other day.
Then there needs to be evidence that this really happened. Anti American or just terrorist have learned that the US news will print anything without facts, so it is the nature of the crime that outweighs the truth and needs to be brought to the American People (plus stir the pot). Surprised Bill Burket didn’t write it with Dan Rather presenting it.

Then there is the perceived perspective on how the war is going. The fight for Iraq is over, it is done, they have a new government, parliament, and constitution. The next phase is removing the minority terrorist factions including Al Qaeda from disrupting the beginnings of this country. Transcripts pulled from Zarqawi didn’t sound like the terrorist were winning. Bin Laden’s most recent taped statement sounds the same, urging Iraqis terrorist groups to step up “the struggle to transform Iraq into the center of an Islamic Caliphate,” and his followers to keep up the fight against the US-led coalition in Baghdad, “else all the capitals in the region will fall to the crusaders.”

In my opinion the radical Islamic regimes fear a new self governing Iraq and are putting everything they have to derail it. So your question should be “Is the fight against terrorist in the middle east worth it?”
Just look at Israel and the Gaza Strip this week. Capitulation never has provided sustainable peace. Islam looks at it like a weakness and will do what they can to capitalize on it. Today the middle east (hey why give control to Al Qaeda the oil in the middle east), tomorrow Europe (ever wonder what was up with all of those “students” terrorizing the outskirts of Paris a couple months ago) then the word.

bobwatford123

07-04-2006, 03:27 AM

Interesting the news doesn't report on the likely thousands of rapes and beatings that occur in Iraq by Iraqis daily either, where women in recent years and to this day have been basically treated like animals.....dirty worthless animals. It's not all that simple Nathan, although ignoring a major problem with humanity would be the easy way out, something had to be done. Perfect, no. Long term it will pay off, if the liberal biased media ever reported anything positive that goes on it could help, and as stated, many positive things have happened.

Thierry Martin

07-04-2006, 04:30 AM

You guys should all rent the movie "Why We Fight."

bobwatford123

07-04-2006, 08:42 PM

Can you summarize it in 40 words or less? I'm very lazy....

Thierry Martin

07-04-2006, 09:18 PM

Can you summarize it in 40 words or less? I'm very lazy....

Your response would be what it is about. Nobody in America knows why they are fighting in Iraq. Must be a good reason. Terrrorists probably. Of course the US wouldn't be there for no good reason. Now where is my hamburger.

NATHAN LLOYD

07-04-2006, 11:48 PM

It's a waste of time and money. We're there, so republicans can have an excuse to be in office.

Invasion of a poor country like Iraq is such a pathetic excuse for war. It would be different if the citizens there actually wanted us to be there. I can't believe that some actually believe we're there to do good. Wow, you'll are so hypnotized.

Thierry Martin

07-04-2006, 11:54 PM

I find the most offensive thing of all is when people repeat the line the government tested and settled on - "they hate our freedom."

Right, that's it. The terrorists got together because "they hate our freedom."

Nothing to do with the spread of capitalistic imperialism in their countries, or the military force used to keep these countries in line. It's "they hate our freedom."

And what about Iraq? What exactly did they do? They were threatening somebody? Powerful army? (They ran away when America showed up.) WMD? (so many, wonder where they hid them all.)

bobwatford123

07-05-2006, 12:21 AM

poor products of the liberal biased media............

NATHAN LLOYD

07-05-2006, 12:45 AM

I hope you don't think the Republicans are conservative. They've racked up the highest trade and budget deficits ever. Democrats are not liberal...this is another lame thing the Republicans made up. Republicans are imperialist fascists that believe that white, rich Christians are better than anyone else. Democrats are much more conservative when it comes to spending and abuse of power than Republicans.

MoMoney4Me

07-05-2006, 02:27 AM

http://capnbob.us/graphics/never/never120.gif

I think many Americans are forgetting what happened on 9-11. Immediately after those events the unity in this country was palpable, and even extended in large part (ostensibly) to our national leaders. Instead, we now have leaders doing everything they can, short of taking up arms, to undermine our success in Iraq, because to them, political success is the Most Important Thing.

First of all, no sane person likes war. But while it takes two to negotiate peace, it takes only one to make war, and sometimes you have no choice but to fight if you value liberty (http://members.aol.com/beardog632/patriot.htm).

Second, you may as well be arguing that we shouldn't have gone to war with Germany in WWII, since after all, it was Japan who attacked us, not Germany.

So why DID we go to war in Europe? Two reasons (of many) come to mind: first, there was a tyrant there invading other countries and killing millions, and second, our leaders correctly saw that the problem in Europe was related to the problem in Japan, and could eventually become even more of a threat to us than Japan was.

For some reason many people, yourself included, are having difficulty seeing the scope of the problem we face in Islamofascist terrorism today. It is not limited to Al-Qaeda or Afghanistan. It is all over the world, and is utterly unlike any major war we have ever fought before.

Our predicament can be summarized using an analogy (http://www.dailypundit.com/newarchives/002561.php):We were attacked by alligators, who killed nearly 3000 of us. In order to prevent future attacks by alligators, we need to drain all the swamps where they breed. The alligators that attacked us came from the swamp in Afghanistan, so that was the first one we began to drain.

But if we only drained that one swamp, we'd eventually be attacked again by the other alligators from other swamps which we left untouched. Iraq is the second swamp we're draining. It's true that none of the alligators in the Iraq swamp was involved in the 9/11 attack. It's also irrelevant. Now that we know just how dangerous alligators can be, we know that letting them continue to breed is too great a risk.

If we want to prevent future alligator attacks, all the swamps where they breed have to be drained, even those swamps whose alligators were not involved in the particular attack which caused us to go to war. It wasn't enough to drain just the swamp in Afghanistan. We also need to drain the swamps in Iraq, in Syria, in Iran and in Saudi Arabia. But what we hope is that if we create adequate drainage (i.e. democracy) in Iraq, that the remaining three will drain themselves without requiring us to come in to do the job. That was why Iraq was the second target: because it bordered the other three and, we hope, will inspire the people of those other nations to drain their own swamps.

Incidentally, re: "international sympathy or goodwill," I don't really care much whether other countries like or sympathize with us, as long as they understand that if they attack us they'll get flattened. Respect is what matters.

Thierry Martin

07-05-2006, 03:20 AM

Give me a break! Why don't you post pictures of the 2 atomic bombs America dropped on Japan on civilian populations months after the Japanese had agreed to surrender? There's something to "never forget who did it." How about a picture of the one million who died in Iraq, most of them children, because of sanctions designed to get Iraq on it's knees like everyone else must be to US foreign policy.

Your arrogance is your undoing. You think fear is respect?

MoMoney4Me

07-05-2006, 03:58 AM

America's response has been in retaliation to unprovoked attacks on it's on soil that resulted in the deaths on innocent victims that included women and children going about their own business. I can think of no reason that people sitting in church at Pearl Harbor should have died from Japan's bombs, or why several hundred travelers should have been flown into the side of the World Trade Center either. I guess you think because they were mostly US citizens that their lives should have been expendable and without any value.

Have you chosen to convienently forget those facts, or do the rules of engagement have no value in your society?

Call it arrogant if you please, but I'm proud of am America that will stand in defense of it's liberty and freedom and fight to preserve it.

Thierry Martin

07-05-2006, 04:20 AM

I never said anybody's lives were expendable - you are the one that wants to "drain swamps." Have you ever even heard of Chomsky?

If you think the 9/11 attacks were "unprovoked" you have a lot of learning to do. What do you think the American government does around the world, feed the hungry, give out free medicine and stop genocide? The 9/11 attacks were horrible, but you are naive if you think they were without cause. If they were without cause, then why declare them as an act of "war"? You think it was just vandalism? Are we spending a trillion dollars looking for some hoodlums? Or are we assuring the political stability of the oil suppliers, without which the world's mightiest military machine would come to a grinding halt?

MoMoney4Me

07-05-2006, 07:52 AM

Chomsky? He's on the same level as that big fat idiot white guy Michael Moore !

The Anti-Chomsky Reader Edited by Peter Collier and David Horowitz
A set of essays that analyze Noam Chomsky's intellectual career and the evolution of his anti-Americanism. The essays in this provocative book focus on subjects such as Chomsky's bizarre involvement with Holocaust revisionism, his apologies for Khmer Rouge tyrant Pol Pot, and his claim that America's policies in Latin America in the 1980s were comparable to Nazism.
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14419

bobwatford123

07-05-2006, 08:57 AM

Politics always raise such interesting discussions....lol.
Here is the main problem. Religion and technology don't mix. Religious radicals are fine when they are limited to throwing stones. Nuclear weapons etc make it a whole new ball game. Those who use religion as an excuse for extermination, cleansing, terror etc need to be eliminated. Thus, Islam extremests need to be eliminated, before they gain the power they want and are able to demolish entire cities. If the U.S. just cowarded like many would prefer them to do, the hatred would still be taught in MiddleEast schools, places of worship etc and SOMEDAY, these lunatics would get their hands on a nuclear bomb and detonate it in New York City or some other comparable location. These extemests think like animals. If governments of these countries actually sponsor this sort of terrorism, they need to be removed, plain and simple.

Thierry Martin

07-05-2006, 09:15 AM

Those who use religion as an excuse for extermination, cleansing, terror etc need to be eliminated.

That sounds really sane.

If the U.S. just cowarded like many would prefer them to do, the hatred would still be taught in MiddleEast schools, places of worship etc and SOMEDAY, these lunatics would get their hands on a nuclear bomb and detonate it in New York City or some other comparable location. These extemests think like animals.

Yes, let's "eliminate" all those who might get their hands on a nuclear bomb.
Only the US produces leaders and people smart enough to use nuclear weapons! Clearly, a superiour race! What was Hitler thinking! The US - that's the master race!

NATHAN LLOYD

07-05-2006, 09:30 AM

Religion and technology don't mix. Religious radicals are fine when they are limited to throwing stones. Nuclear weapons etc make it a whole new ball game. Those who use religion as an excuse for extermination, cleansing, terror etc need to be eliminated. Thus, Islam extremests need to be eliminated, before they gain the power they want and are able to demolish entire cities.

I assume you want to exterminate Bush and the US army since Bush is a religious radical who is terrorizing Iraq in the name of cleansing with the US army.

If the U.S. just cowarded like many would prefer them to do, the hatred would still be taught in MiddleEast schools, places of worship etc and SOMEDAY, these lunatics would get their hands on a nuclear bomb and detonate it in New York City or some other comparable location. These extemests think like animals.

We were big cowards invading a defensless nation that had nothing to do with 9-11, so we can get oil. This is only going to create more terrorists than less. We have given them every reason to focus only on the US for our stupid actions. We are their motivation when they recruit terrorists in other countries.

bobwatford123

07-05-2006, 09:40 AM

lol, I'm done. Have fun boys. Don't hate. Appreciate.

oldboldpilot

07-05-2006, 11:34 AM

We are indeed shining examples of the might of righteousness. Why, we fought the Korean war (ooops. Police Action) to stop the Red hordes from invading our shores. How does that old mantra go....."It's better we fight them there than on Main Street, U.S.A.) What a massive package of horse pucky THAT is. I fought in that conflict and lost a lot of good friends there....for absolutely nothing !
Then there was Vietnam. We had to orchestrate a reason for our intervention there but we succeeded and achieved a miraculous defeat. Who stepped into the void there ?? Those damned commies...the same ones who are making your shirts and shoes.
The first Iraqi conflict was righteous....we couldn't allow Iraq to annex Kuwait. Then a period of time passed while Bush Jr. stewed in his own juices, all pissed off because Hussein threatened his Daddy. Gotta get that SOB at all costs AND create an American presence in that region to help stave off Chinese and Russian influence. After all, Iran, Iraq and most of the countries in that region had allied themselves to the ex-Soviets and the burgeoning market of China. We can't have that !
Maybe those who scream "my country, love it or leave it" should read Sbigniew Brzezinski and try to apply some reasoning as to what our foreign policy really is. Nah, that would take way too much time and there are football games to watch and nachos to eat.
I watched a video where someone held up a map of the world and asked people who we should go to war with next ...then askled them to point to that country on the map. Unbelievable ignorance.....the answers varied from France (because they are not friendly to us) to Venezuela (same reason) to Canada to Iran to most of the Muslim nations. Unfortunately, about 90% of the people interviewed could not point to the offending country on the world map.
I think that says it all ! Beware the Mongrel Hordes, for they is us. (POGO)

Thierry Martin

07-05-2006, 12:57 PM

With all due respect to the victims of 911, but to put that tragedy in perspective, more people eat themselves to death every day in the US than died in the towers on that one day.

jeffblacktn

07-05-2006, 01:17 PM

I have become dismayed and cynical toward the United States government over the course of my last fifteen years, primarily due to the arrogance and attitude our society displays toward other sovereign nations.

Regardless of party, the policies our government takes in opposition to those sovereign nations citing a threat to our national interests, which are deemed superior, is nothing short of pomposity.

Thierry Martin

07-05-2006, 03:34 PM

I highly recommend anyone interested in these issues to see the documentary "Why We Fight" - regardless of which side of the debate you are on.

Lou

07-05-2006, 10:30 PM

I think everyone should just dig a hole in your back yard and live underground, come back up in 20 years

berberick

07-08-2006, 02:22 AM

NATHAN LLOYD

07-08-2006, 06:15 AM

The war is on , period ! The next step is not rolling over and admitting defeat . That is a sure way to invite future problems .

It's not a war! It was an invasion of a poor country that produces oil. YOU'RE COMPLETELY BLINDED BY THE MEDIA. How could there be a defeat in a country that let us walk in and take over their capital? Please tell me what you mean by admitting defeat. I really see us running out of men over there in Iraq. What the f**k are you smoking?

Our problems would definitely lessen if we left Iraq. What void are you speaking of left behind? Do you understand the size of it? Do you mean the government we set up couldn't defend themselve's from the Sunnis in Iraq and Iran when we leave? Why should we care? I thought we went there for weapons of mass destruction. It's just another mistake like the Vietnam war and creating Isreal.

You don't think were causing more problems by getting between the two sects of Muslims? The Shiites represent only 10% of the Muslim world. The other 90% of the Muslims, the 1.3 billion Sunnis, will just forget that we overthrew a Sunni nation and injected our own Shiite government. Staying there to support this minority government will hold off future problems, and make the other 1.3 billion Muslims happy? These are the facts that you should consider that our media doesn't really go out of its way to tell us about.

This "war" is only making the Sunnis hate us more. It's making it harder for us to get oil from the middle east. Additionally, it's costing the taxpayers of the US billions of dollars. China has supported this budget deficit by buying our bonds. Our economy crashes if the Chinese decide to sell those bonds back.

Leaving Iraq would be the smartest thing we could do. Not leaving is being pigheaded and not admitting a mistake. There is never going to be a solution to this problem that we created. Sometimes admitting a mistake is the smartest thing to do. Our only other option would be to blow all the rest of the Muslim countries off the map, and hope India, China, and Russia wouldn't feel threatend or get upset from having to deal with the nuclear fall out.

Bush's administration was too predictible. For example, I told my mom the first day I found out who was president that we were going to go to war. I bet the 9-11 plan was set up as a way to make the surrounding Muslim countries more united. Their people have one place being taught to them to focus their anger, and what we're doing in Iraq is feeding this hate. It's a way to disperse the anger of being destitute from the Muslim leaders to the US.

bobwatford123

07-08-2006, 08:30 AM

If they did develop nuclear weapons and you could guarantee one wouldn't be driven in a cube van into manhatten great. Let them blow the **** out of each other. Religion and nukes don't mix.

NATHAN LLOYD

07-08-2006, 05:22 PM

If they did develop nuclear weapons and you could guarantee one wouldn't be driven in a cube van into manhatten great. Let them blow the **** out of each other. Religion and nukes don't mix.

No one could guarantee that, but I sure know our chances are higher the longer we stay in Iraq invoking the anger of more than a billion people.

oldboldpilot

07-09-2006, 04:00 PM

your a dumb=== . If you think it does not matter who takes the power in Iraq if we leave your on crack . The problem w/ such short sighted views is we will end up going back latter on . The more powerfull Iran gets the better chance their is of a massive conflict . I actually did not not vote for Bush , Bush junior should have taken the lead from his dad . His dad was bad mouthed for not finishing Saddam off . Maybe the old man was wiser than given credit for . Being a former Us Marine w/ combat ex. I consider your feeble , weak will a problem w/ many americans . Your always looking back , not forward . The war is on , period ! The next step is not rolling over and admitting defeat . That is a sure way to invite future problems .

Damn...as an ex Marine, I have to apologize for my compatriot. Maybe the corps messed up his mind to the pont where he is unable to reason. Maybe the DI put a bucket over his head and beat on it too many times.
Let me give my marine buddy a read....try Sleeping With The Devil or if you aren't into reading watch the movie, Syriana or just THINK for yourself for a change.
If you cannot ferret out the truth...and that is the fact that we are in Iraq not to free the yoke of oppression from the necks of Iraqis but to secure a presence in that "strategic" part of the world where our self interests are at stake then there is little hope for your analytic abilities.
It is a foregone conclusion that Iraq will revert to a civil war (it is pretty much there now) and there is little we can do to avert it.
Instead of spending billions of dollars and throwing away thousands of American kid's lives trying to secure our future oil, I think those billions would be better spent developing batteries, nuclear power facilities and other alternative power sources..but then what the hell do I know, I am just an old jarhead Chosin reservoir survivor.

aiki14

07-09-2006, 04:31 PM

I'd love to hear your stories of the Chosin, no wonder you went to Alaska it was probably for the comparatively balmy weather. My dads a Korea vet, Navy. Glad you made it.
Anyone interested can get a bit of info at http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/ChosinReservoir.htm

NATHAN LLOYD

07-10-2006, 07:19 PM

It's not a war! It was an invasion of a poor country that produces oil. YOU'RE COMPLETELY BLINDED BY THE MEDIA. How could there be a defeat in a country that let us walk in and take over their capital? Please tell me what you mean by admitting defeat. I really see us running out of men over there in Iraq. What the f**k are you smoking?

Our problems would definitely lessen if we left Iraq. What void are you speaking of left behind? Do you understand the size of it? Do you mean the government we set up couldn't defend themselve's from the Sunnis in Iraq and Iran when we leave? Why should we care? I thought we went there for weapons of mass destruction. It's just another mistake like the Vietnam war and creating Israel.

You don't think we're causing more problems by getting between the two sects of Muslims? The Shiites represent only 10% of the Muslim world. The other 90% of the Muslims, the 1.3 billion Sunnis, will just forget that we overthrew a Sunni nation and injected our own Shiite government. Staying there to support this minority government will hold off future problems, and make the other 1.3 billion Muslims happy? These are the facts that you should consider that our media doesn't really go out of its way to tell us about.

This "war" is only making the Sunnis hate us more. It's making it harder for us to get oil from the middle east. Additionally, it's costing the taxpayers of the US billions of dollars. China has supported this budget deficit by buying our bonds. Our economy crashes if the Chinese decide to sell those bonds back.

Leaving Iraq would be the smartest thing we could do. Not leaving is being pigheaded and not admitting a mistake. There is never going to be a solution to this problem that we created. Sometimes admitting a mistake is the smartest thing to do. Our only other option would be to blow all the rest of the Muslim countries off the map, and hope India, China, and Russia wouldn't feel threatend or get upset from having to deal with the nuclear fall out.

Bush's administration was too predictible. For example, I told my mom the first day I found out who was president that we were going to go to war. I bet the 9-11 plan was set up as a way to make the surrounding Muslim countries more united. Their people have one place being taught to them to focus their anger, and what we're doing in Iraq is feeding this hate. It's a way to disperse the anger of being destitute from the Muslim leaders to the US.

I like quoting myself...I did change a couple spelling errors.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1816661,00.html

This is a story demonstrating what the new Shiite government we set up in Iraq is doing. They're trying to perform genocide on the Sunnis. The Sunni have to get fake ID's to survive, and we're suppose to be setting up a peaceful government there. I'm really glad we can help them out: aren't you?

NATHAN LLOYD

07-15-2006, 08:57 PM

Bush thought he could promote democracy in Russia using Iraq as an example. He got made fun of for this in Russian. I'm embarrassed to be an American with Bush, the idiot, as our "elected" president.

BuyOnDips

07-17-2006, 02:18 PM

Svenwulf

07-17-2006, 02:22 PM

.. dividing seemed to work in the balkans.. gave all parties a little breathing room, and now some talk about getting back together.

Cyn

07-25-2006, 04:40 PM

Unfortunately, no one looked at the history of the region which doomed the American adventure before it began. When you ask the military, they always say their technology will 'wipe out' the enemy. How naive and unprepared they were in VN. and this is history repeating itself [civil war] in another region.

The Saudi Princes are great friends of the Bush dynasty. Do you think they or their equals in the other oil producing countries want any form of democracy, voting or change in their super indulgent lifestyle? Who do you think is paying the bills for 'insurgents?" Democracy? Are you kidding? These tribes have been warring for centuries. They feed on hate, it is taught each and every day and as familiar as the air they breathe. Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds are waging civil war using America as an excuse. The criminal element formerly used by Sadam adds more death than the American military for personal reasons.

Lebannon has an elected government unable and unwilling to rid itself of Hezbollah who live to kill. If jews are unavailable, they will kill Lebannese.
Westerners can't get their minds around the idea that the Muslim religion has been hijacked by a criminal element that makes Stalin a pleasant Papa Joe.

NATHAN LLOYD

07-28-2006, 12:42 AM

Lebannon has an elected government unable and unwilling to rid itself of Hezbollah who live to kill. If jews are unavailable, they will kill Lebannese.

The Jews in Israel live to kill and we give them better weapons to kill more than Hezbollah ever could. You're just another lame product of brain washing by Fox news.

aiki14

07-28-2006, 04:05 AM

The Jews in Israel live to kill and we give them better weapons to kill more than Hezbollah ever could. You're just another lame product of brain washing by Fox news.

Nate, I've been to Israel, and the folks on the street live to raise families and do business and all the things that people everywhere do. I've only been to 2 predominantly Muslim countries, Indonesia and Abu Dhabi and I found the people there to be about the same. It's only when folks get whipped into a fervor by polititians and zealots with selfserving and misguided motives that the trouble starts. I'm an agnostic and have a limited understanding of the religious motivations but I don't believe anybody but a true misanthrope "lives to kill", but when people believe that their perceived enemy "lives to kill" what logical choice is there but to preemptively strike? The solution lies in realizing the humanity of the other group and moving towards peace, not in assuming the inhumanity of the other group and pressing for extermination.

optimus25

07-28-2006, 02:09 PM

Vietnam was the biggest mistake.

Bush's father should have taken out Sadam in the first gulf war. The big mistake was not using enough troops in the beginning to keep the peace.

Also Iraq should have been divided into 3 seperate countries once the initial fighting was over(sharing the oil revenue). Give the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites their own country.

Here's an interesting article on changing the borders in the middle east:
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2006/06/1833899

I think they kept Saddam to keep the middle east in check. The removal of Saddam has created a power vacuum. Radical Islamic factions are all trying to gain a stronger foothold. I'm not sure if anyone has noticed that terrorist attacks and severity has increased since we started the war in IRAQ. I think Bush needed a scapegoat of war in IRAQ to show that he was doing something about 9/11. What have we done since then? Created more instability in the middle east. Have we even caught the culprit, Bin Laden?

optimus25

07-28-2006, 02:11 PM

NATHAN LLOYD

07-28-2006, 06:17 PM

Nate, I've been to Israel, and the folks on the street live to raise families and do business and all the things that people everywhere do. I've only been to 2 predominantly Muslim countries, Indonesia and Abu Dhabi and I found the people there to be about the same. It's only when folks get whipped into a fervor by polititians and zealots with selfserving and misguided motives that the trouble starts. I'm an agnostic and have a limited understanding of the religious motivations but I don't believe anybody but a true misanthrope "lives to kill", but when people believe that their perceived enemy "lives to kill" what logical choice is there but to preemptively strike? The solution lies in realizing the humanity of the other group and moving towards peace, not in assuming the inhumanity of the other group and pressing for extermination.Good points.

I agree good points aiki. I don't like the destruction that went on in Lebanon. For every soldier killed, we destroy a building is what the leader of Israel said. I really think Israel is being a big bully in an brutally unfair manner. I've had a friend that was Jewish and a friend who was Lebanese. I don't hate either group. I'm just depressed about what is going on, and I get irritated when people talk about how bad Hezbolah is. The Israelites have been the ones who have shown the desire to inflict severe pain and suffering on others. They are the aggressors trying to annihilate a country over a couple kidnapped soldiers.

soundlanguage

08-02-2006, 04:20 AM

Hezbollah kidnpping the soldiers was the timely green light for Israeli retaliation on a
grand scale, essentially war by proxy- America arms Israel to do it's dirty work. They receive equal power in return. They need us, we need them like a (dumb) pimp & (savvy) whore. Who leads who? The question is unanswerable. The same could be said of Saudi Arabia who's petrodollars control a massive stake in yankee business, real estate, you name it they probably own quite a chunk of it.

As for the recent Lebanese blitz, i've come to find apparently Israel was planning this for awhile. It boils down to the long term idea of reshaping the region further to bolster Israel's influence/stronghold while simultaneously isolating Syria and Iran and make less extremist countries like the Lebanese government choose moderation (submission) "or else".

Why all the bloodshed and fuss? Same old story ... resources.

Not long but skip to the middle-end if you're short on time:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824

Supporting this idea is recent news which has filtered into mainstream media about rushing through orders for sales of missles to Israel, to replace those already recently sold. Our military contractors just can't seem to produce WMD's fast enough ... Olmert, Condie Rice, Bush & Blair all talk out their a**es when they say a truce isn't acheivable just yet, that this will last just a couple more weeks, they actually offer a timeline like they're reading from a playbook. Civilians are better off stepping back, looking at this from a wide angle and challenging their elite leaders to explain why they refuse to preserve what peace they do have by saving their lives and the countries infrastructure, not just talking of doing it.

Israel is now doing the "Do as i say not as i do" routine Bush/Blair does. In the end people just like all of us lose out, the elite become more powerful, the rich richer- who in turn reinforce the power who so easily leads young men & women down the path of war. Control the sheeple by culling the herd when it grows too fat & unruly. Peace is bad for business, bad for $$ocracy.

Check the charts of history, same ploys used repeatedly by a small elite to divide people against one another, to inflame regional hostilities into global wars. (Who always benefits?) It's easy to use entertainment, religion or ethnicity to manipulate and control people. Classic Divide & Conquer. Keep peons from truly sharing ideas, changing the structure. Anyone who dares gets demonised and/or knocked off ...

"Democratic" leaders apply knowledge gleaned from the Art of War, not ethics of Constitutional Rights.

We keep getting sucked in, blinded by nationalist pride, illusion, victims rightousness. The cycle is stuck on repeat.

Overall, I don't see it ever ending until we collectively are free of reliance on others. Independence is a dangerous word these days...