Cause of Death, A debate. Warning Content may be Offensive

[aiki14]

In a post a while back I made the statement that Christianity was responsible for more deaths than any other group. Freakscene was of a dissenting position. We have agreed to post our positions and evidence therefore, in this thread.

Please do not read the thread if it will be offensive to you, and know that it is not my intent to be offensive. However this being a very charged topic I understand that people will have reactions to my posts and maybe even to Freakscene's or anybody else who chooses to enter the discussion. I also request the content of posts refrain from personal attacks or needlessly incendiary comments.


So here is the postulate:

Christianity is responsible for more human deaths than any other group of humans in recorded history.

I'll post my opening after close, or when I can organize it appropriately.

[XOM]

Christianity is responsible for more human deaths than any other group of humans in recorded history.

Motion seconded...

[freakscene]

Without a number to rebut, it sort of makes my post here irrelevant, but just to give you a starting figure, the Muslim slaughter of Hindu Indians is estimated between 80 and 100 million people alone.

Let me know when you get over that number.

I'll post a source.

[XOM]

The number is unquantifiable really, but an easy way to look at this: if there is a God...he created everything and is omnipotent, therefore he is responsible for all murders. Not only does he allow the murder to take place, but he created the murderer knowing full well the acts they would commit. Either he is omnipotent or he isn't...no half way excuses.

I'm sure Jim will offer more factually based evidence, I'm just not up for the time consuming nature of the topic.

[freakscene]

The number is unquantifiable really, but an easy way to look at this: if there is a God...he created everything and is omnipotent, therefore he is responsible for all murders. Not only does he allow the murder to take place, but he created the murderer knowing full well the acts they would commit. Either he is omnipotent or he isn't...no half way excuses.


Thats a rather open ended way of looking at things XOM ! But I do not believe this is a thread about whether or not there is a "God". :)

And, unfortunately, by the time I find out it will be a bit too late to let you know. ;)

I'll toss out another number.

110 million in the name of atheism if you add up Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao together ??

we need to come to a conclusion as to how to qualify the numbers.

[Albert0373]

Check this out: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

Death toll list.

[XOM]

Hehe, just thought I'd cut to the chase, this is Jim's thread I'm sure he has some answers in mind for you. ;)

[freakscene]

Check this out: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

Death toll list.


Thats an interesting site Albert. I have a feeling at the end of the day, we are going to have inconclusive results.

After all if historians can not agree on the population of North America in 1492 and differ by a hundred million, thats going to skew results.

Still, this is an interesting topic.

[freakscene]

Through surfing Alberts link, I found other sources which led me to this.

http://atheistblogger.com/2008/07/02/death-toll-theism-vs-atheism/

i havent had a chance to break down the numbers, yet.

Theism has managed to kill an estimate of 2,229,074,100 people.

Atheism has managed to kill an estimate of 95,000,000 people.

[aiki14]

So I'll stipulate to the estimates previously posted that the largest non Christian group appears to bear responsibility for 110 million whether by direct action or secondary effect (such as starvation in the case of stalin etc). That's assuming that Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, were atheists. I will stipulate to that as well. It is noteworthy that they didn't derive their reasoning or authority from Atheism the way Christians do from their God.

The Christians have a tradition of spreading their word to the masses by whatever means necessary. Therefore I put forth the proposition that in addition to the outright killing of the various victims, the ancillary results of that activity add additional responsibility.

So to begin,
The indigenous population of North America, by way of Killings, wars of expansion, spread of disease (often with intent as in the selling of malaria infested blankets etc.), and starvation due to being driven from their lands.
100,000,000 pre-european total population nearly exterminated but since it cannot be verified easily and some of the deaths may be due to natural events or other causes we can say 20,000,000 to be safe.

The indigenous population of South America, and Central America. Unfortunately the locals there were visited by the Spanish and Portuguese who were much more likely to just wipe out the locals rather than displace them. They also spread disease, but this was less of a cause than in the North by all estimates. Wars of Conquest to Christianize the Peruvian natives in the 16th century alone resulted in 8.5 to 13.5 million deaths. Again to be on the safe side lets say 20,000,000 total.

Indigenous African population.
Again difficult to be accurate. Through the slavery era and the age of colonial expansion, by way of conquest, displacement, and slavery. All of course by Christian Nations in the name of their god, over 250 years, estimates range from 20 to 50 million. I'll go with 20,000,000 to be safe.


Indigenous Australasian and Oceanic populations
Again difficult to estimate both original population, and death tolls. By way of Conquest and displacement estimates are 5-15 million. I'll use the lowest estimate here as well, so 5,000,000



Those killed by Nazi Germany/ Adolf Hitler, seeing as how the deaths caused by Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot can be attributed to atheists I see this as fair game.
Estimates are around 14 million for direct war deaths and 28 million civilians in the European theater. Being the most studied event in history I'll let these estimates stand. Let me put off any statements of Hitler being anything but Christian with the following:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders."
Adolf Hitler in a speech on 12 Apr 1922 (Baynes translation)
I can provide many more of these quotes if necessary.
So in Military and Civilian casualties as a direct result of the Hitler war machine 42,000,000

There are many wars where the participant monarchies were both Christian, and both believed their authority came from the Christian God. A couple of examples are:

The French religious Wars (1562-98)
2,000,000 dead

The Thirty years war (circa 1618-48)
estimates from 4-11 million I'll use 4
4,000,000 dead

The crusades (700-1400)
Estimates of 1-2 million I'll use 1
1,000,000


At this point I have 114 million attributable to Christians, using the lowest estimate I had for each instance.
Historical inaccuracies make it difficult to assess death tolls from old events especially when the Christians wrote many of the histories.
Here are a few examples of events where the deaths were the result of Christians but the numbers are difficult or impossible to estimate realistically:
The Spanish inquisition
The Congo Free State
Jews Killed as Scapegoats for the Black Plague
Russian Pogroms
The Napoleonic wars (Napoleon restored catholicism as the national religion)
The conflict in Northern Ireland
Cyprus
Dnieper Cossack rebellion
Razin Rebellion
Persecution of the Waldensians

Then we ask, how many death's would have been prevented had the Christians stood up against the event? The Vatican during the holocaust could have done a great deal to prevent the tragedy and didn't, a major resistance to the US entering the war in europe was led by George Eggleston author of books on Christian teachings.

Conclusion:
This wasn't as much fun as I thought it would be. While it is always fun to point up the flaws of the pious and self righteous, it is pretty obvious that we as a species are very good at causing one another harm. That is a bit depressing as I have always believed in the basic goodness of people. I guess when placed into groups we behave in ways we would never behave otherwise.
I did find that among those who seek to justify their malice, as opposed to those who don't give a damn what anybody thinks, a large portion fall back on religion to do so. While this is a discussion of deaths it is also noteworthy that many injustices are also perpetrated in the name of or with the anointing of Christian religious dogma, but I'll leave that to another thread. Many people say we derive our morality from religion. For the last 1500 years or so Christianity has been the dominant religion of the planet. For the same period it is extremely difficult to say we have been a moral species, in how we treat each other, our planet, and ourselves. Perhaps a logical derivation would be more efficacious.

[freakscene]

114 million then, without really examining the numbers, because as both of us have already suggested, its quite difficult to actually find accurate figures most historians agree with.

but i believe i will be able to conclude muslims beat that figure. i will need a bit of time.




Conclusion:
This wasn't as much fun as I thought it would be. While it is always fun to point up the flaws of the pious and self righteous, it is pretty obvious that we as a species are very good at causing one another harm. .


agreed on all points.

[skeet2008]

What a morbid subject-ya'll need to get outa the house more often. I don't think religion is the cause of this slaughter, just the excuse. Christians are no worse that others they are just more effective in the use of violence. Humans are animals with less body hair; killing is ingrained in our survival instinct and rooted in our primordial past. Our downfall is our inability to control this instinct or evolve beyond it.

If we had no religion or no borders you can be sure we would find other excuses to harn each other and take each others' stuff.

[Jelly]

In my head, I'm sure Christians (especially born-again) tend to kill others in many small ways, in large ways, on every day. Rip-offs, emotional pain and arrogant egotism are hallmarks of those who can erase the days crimes with a hurried "grace" before dinner.

Those of us without false gods, think about the repercussions of our actions and will "own" (of necessity) our deeds. This is why I have a closet full of designer foil hats.

[Svenwulf]

This is why I have a closet full of designer foil hats.

a damn shame we arent better friends. remember- shiny side up.

arguing about how many more deaths christians have cause compared to muslims etc. al. reminds me of the beatles asking how many holes to fill the albert hall. and then the religion vs nation vs clan are just colors in the human hatred rainbow as another poster broached. i think its less that humans want to hurt others then they are just easily manipulated into hurting others. but i also assume people are born "good."

perhaps a more interesting statistical excersice would be the historical ratio of politicians to deaths. or better yet, bankers to deaths ratio. even the first christians knew charging interest causes social discordance.

as always, best wishes.

[freakscene]

that would be interesting sven.

but this is not comparing muslims vs christians

if we accept the numbers aiki and i provided of 114 to 110 million on their face, christians to atheists, its my opinion that we are comparing apples to apples really.

also, i was sort of hoping the thread would evolve into a world history discussion, but i just dont see it happening.

cheers

:)

[aiki14]

that would be interesting sven.

but this is not comparing muslims vs christians

if we accept the numbers aiki and i provided of 114 to 110 million on their face, christians to atheists, its my opinion that we are comparing apples to apples really.

also, i was sort of hoping the thread would evolve into a world history discussion, but i just dont see it happening.

cheers

:)


My 114 using the most conservative estimates, versus your 110 using the highest, and I am pretty confident I could make a case for doubling my estimate.
I'll take the deafening silence as capitulation, but I am disappointed that nobody else came to the defense of my Christian brothers. Is this evidence that there really is no defense? No, that would be junk science. Absence of evidence is no evidence of absence, but fortunately there is 1500 years of recorded history that is frankly undeniable.
Scary what people can do when they believe god is on their side, which is reason enough to fear the righteous.

Cheers

[freakscene]

capitulation it was not.

i made my point

lets agree on a source to validate numbers

:)

[Humbleone]

You may want to add on the 60 million heart beats ended by abortion since
the "Roe vs Wade" decision from the Halls of justice. America is a "Christian" nation, right?

[ZaNoob]

You must also analyze each event. Was each event truly done in the name of Christianity or greed? Many disguise their goals to be more palatable to the public.

[Humbleone]

You must also analyze each event. Was each event truly done in the name of Christianity or greed? Many disguise their goals to be more palatable to the public.

And thats why every politician says "God bless you and God bless America" after every speech regardless of what they truly believe. As a matter of fact, God must truly be perfect(We are not) because we wrap ourselves up with him. Christianity, being a discipline, requires training in discernment which searches out the true motive of the heart.

[John Law]

This is quite a thread. The fact that aiki links Christianity with most of those wars I think says more about him than it does about Christians. Anyone that thinks that any of the wars in America's history had anything to do with Chrisitanity simply because some of the participants were Christians has got some reasoning issues. Being a lifelong Christian (who has yet to kill anyone in the name of Christianity) I guess I should be offended somehow, but again, with this kind of reasoning, there really isn't much to say, except that after reading aiki's argument, it is clear that he has a problem with Christianity.

The only thing I will respond with is this: I don't know anyone here personally, I only know how you post. When I see who is arguing and fighting about various political, economic, social, or religious issues on this forum, somehow, aiki seems always to be in the center of it. Only last week, we were all treated to an argument about politics between he and BuyOnDips which ended in swearing and insults all around. I suppose if we found out that BuyonDips was christened as a child, we could blame the argument on Christianity and talk about how scary Christians are. The funny thing is, I never see TheChartGuru arguing with anyone; he always calls everyone 'brother' and he is always patient to explain his methodology.

To me, he is an example of what Christians are supposed to be. When I look at wars that were somehow justified in the name of Christianity, i don't think it was their Christianity that led to those wars, because Christianity teaches peace. Jesus Himself said that his servants should not fight because His kingdom is not of this world. He also said that the meek will inherit the earth. I can tell you truly that when George Bush attacked Iraq, I had a problem with it precisely because I am a Christian and I don't believe that pre-emptive strikes are right before God. A lot of Christians disagreed with me, but not because they were Christians. The response I usually got was that they trusted the President. I recognize that Mr. Bush or anyone entering a war uses something higher than himself to justify the war, but this hardly means that the war came about because of that idea. Any high ideal is going to be skewed by people who wish to use it for their own political or economic gain. This is not a reflection on the ideal itself, only on the power of that ideal that people want to steal.

In this country, it is politically expedient for a Presidential candidate to proclaim loudly that he is a Christian because then the entire south and a lot of the midwest will vote for you. To me, the person that most closely reflected Christian ideals in this campaign was not Mike Huckabee, who the south loved, but Ron Paul. Ron Paul refuses to attack people personally, although he himself has been attacked many times. In his humble, unpretensious manner, he discussed issues over and over and let his Christianity be known through his deeds, not his words. He is honest, he desires peace, he wants to help the common man retain the value of his money, he loves family, and his personal service to others in the medical field is well-documented. That is a Christianity to aspire to. Even Ron Paul has his faults and falls short of perfectly representing his God, but so do we all. You can't blame God for the sin problem in the world; it happens in spite of Him, not because of Him.

Just one more note: I recognize that there are atheists waiting in line to argue with a Christian who put his head up. I think anyone on this site who has been here any length of time has seen many atheist threads mocking and deriding Christianity. That is what atheists do, it is inherent with that world view. A doctrine that has formed itself entirely around being against another doctrine, hence the term a-theism. My suggestion to the atheists on this thread is that perhaps instead of wearing on everyone with your incessant anti-Christian rhetoric, perhaps you could put forth a more positive world view. Show us what you are for and why your world view is superior. What can you do for humanity besides insulting Christians? Christianity provides a plan of salvation for the world. Can you provide that?

[aiki14]

This is quite a thread. The fact that aiki links Christianity with most of those wars I think says more about him than it does about Christians. Anyone that thinks that any of the wars in America's history had anything to do with Chrisitanity simply because some of the participants were Christians has got some reasoning issues. Being a lifelong Christian (who has yet to kill anyone in the name of Christianity) I guess I should be offended somehow, but again, with this kind of reasoning, there really isn't much to say, except that after reading aiki's argument, it is clear that he has a problem with Christianity.

The only thing I will respond with is this: I don't know anyone here personally, I only know how you post. When I see who is arguing and fighting about various political, economic, social, or religious issues on this forum, somehow, aiki seems always to be in the center of it. Only last week, we were all treated to an argument about politics between he and BuyOnDips which ended in swearing and insults all around. I suppose if we found out that BuyonDips was christened as a child, we could blame the argument on Christianity and talk about how scary Christians are. The funny thing is, I never see TheChartGuru arguing with anyone; he always calls everyone 'brother' and he is always patient to explain his methodology.

To me, he is an example of what Christians are supposed to be. When I look at wars that were somehow justified in the name of Christianity, i don't think it was their Christianity that led to those wars, because Christianity teaches peace. Jesus Himself said that his servants should not fight because His kingdom is not of this world. He also said that the meek will inherit the earth. I can tell you truly that when George Bush attacked Iraq, I had a problem with it precisely because I am a Christian and I don't believe that pre-emptive strikes are right before God. A lot of Christians disagreed with me, but not because they were Christians. The response I usually got was that they trusted the President. I recognize that Mr. Bush or anyone entering a war uses something higher than himself to justify the war, but this hardly means that the war came about because of that idea. Any high ideal is going to be skewed by people who wish to use it for their own political or economic gain. This is not a reflection on the ideal itself, only on the power of that ideal that people want to steal.

In this country, it is politically expedient for a Presidential candidate to proclaim loudly that he is a Christian because then the entire south and a lot of the midwest will vote for you. To me, the person that most closely reflected Christian ideals in this campaign was not Mike Huckabee, who the south loved, but Ron Paul. Ron Paul refuses to attack people personally, although he himself has been attacked many times. In his humble, unpretensious manner, he discussed issues over and over and let his Christianity be known through his deeds, not his words. He is honest, he desires peace, he wants to help the common man retain the value of his money, he loves family, and his personal service to others in the medical field is well-documented. That is a Christianity to aspire to. Even Ron Paul has his faults and falls short of perfectly representing his God, but so do we all. You can't blame God for the sin problem in the world; it happens in spite of Him, not because of Him.

Just one more note: I recognize that there are atheists waiting in line to argue with a Christian who put his head up. I think anyone on this site who has been here any length of time has seen many atheist threads mocking and deriding Christianity. That is what atheists do, it is inherent with that world view. A doctrine that has formed itself entirely around being against another doctrine, hence the term a-theism. My suggestion to the atheists on this thread is that perhaps instead of wearing on everyone with your incessant anti-Christian rhetoric, perhaps you could put forth a more positive world view. Show us what you are for and why your world view is superior. What can you do for humanity besides insulting Christians? Christianity provides a plan of salvation for the world. Can you provide that?

Actually, I only went with such a wide perspective because freakscene included Stalin and Mao as killing atheists. I am not so naive that I believe these wars were fought or the killings were in the name of christianity, just by christians. The Crusades, and the killing or converting of the indigenous peoples certainly were, but you guys seem to have stopped that for the most part.
Freakscene accused me of hating this country because I differed with his position, and he has said that folks on the other side are intellectually inferior. Others have linked me with murderers, pornographers and even Putin because of my differing from them politically.
I do have a problem with Christianity. I find any mythology a bit mystifying in that I can't believe all these people believe it. But what really bugs me is the Christians who want to force their views on public policy.
I am in fact for many of the things Christians profess but seldom live up to. I believe we should live and let live, do un to others, extend the same rights we cherish to all folks, allow people to choose what they want to do with their own bodies, and with whomever they love. And I am on record here espousing those views.
http://www.onlinetradersforum.com/showthread.php?p=113509#post113509
post #148
You might ask Frank who sent him the E-mail asking him to return to the forum.
Pretty funny you whine about us atheists and our anti christian rhetoric, when you christians have been totally mobilized to convert us for so long. We're not against you we're just trying to show you the true path.
I don't know how to define salvation, but I do believe the bible lays out a plan that would do humanity good. Do un to others as you would have done unto you works pretty well, but it is found in pretty much the same form in many other religious texts.
As to what I can do for humanity besides insulting Christians, I'd love to put my service on the record against yours or anybody else's. You want to bet on which one of us donates more to charity? And if thats not fair, how about on a percentage basis? How about more hours volunteering? How about just helping anyone who asks around here?

That said, I realize I have gone back on my word. I said to Frank I would hold back on the religious stuff, and obviously I have not done so. I apologize. My opinions are on record, and I am not going to change them, nor am I likely to change anyone else's.

[concrete]

Jesus Christ would be burned at the stake in center of every "Christian" community he appeared in today, if he opened his mouth and spoke his mind about what is going on. Your real problem is with the people who have usurped the concept of Christianity and turned it into a business model and political power making machine. These Christian posers are the Christofacists counterpart to the Islamofascist. Unfortunately they cloak their agenda in god bullsh*t and double talk, and no one calls them on it, very much like the "Islamofacists" who are also claimed to be a minority, but a minority that rules a vast majority of supposed "peace loving" Muslims. In fact, the resemblance of Christofacists to Islamofacists is downright scary. They are not any different that the Mafiosi who claimed to be devout Catholics - except when it came to their occupations and anything else they did except for Sunday during Mass. Using religious bullsh*t as camouflage for a political or business agenda is bullsh*t, and that is why the Founding Fathers insisted on a separation of Church and State. They saw how religious beliefs were used to control and basically f*ck over the population.

The people in this country who call themselves Christians and then spend their time chanting hate bullsh*t about people who are also Christian, but just not the same flavor or skin color, or hate bullsh*t about people from other religions also based essentially on race, or even their religion are not the Christians Jesus would want using his name to describe their actions and beliefs. Thus, the distinction - Christofacists = the "Christian" version of "Muslims" who make up the Islamofacists, who have earned all Muslims the hatred of these "Christians" in much of America.

Calling yourself or your group "Christian" does not make you or your group immune to being discovered to be a racist, hate consumed, sh*thead.

[John Law]

Actually, I only went with such a wide perspective because freakscene included Stalin and Mao as killing atheists. I am not so naive that I believe these wars were fought or the killings were in the name of christianity, just by christians. The Crusades, and the killing or converting of the indigenous peoples certainly were, but you guys seem to have stopped that for the most part.
Freakscene accused me of hating this country because I differed with his position, and he has said that folks on the other side are intellectually inferior. Others have linked me with murderers, pornographers and even Putin because of my differing from them politically.
I do have a problem with Christianity. I find any mythology a bit mystifying in that I can't believe all these people believe it. But what really bugs me is the Christians who want to force their views on public policy.
I am in fact for many of the things Christians profess but seldom live up to. I believe we should live and let live, do un to others, extend the same rights we cherish to all folks, allow people to choose what they want to do with their own bodies, and with whomever they love. And I am on record here espousing those views.
http://www.onlinetradersforum.com/showthread.php?p=113509#post113509
post #148
You might ask Frank who sent him the E-mail asking him to return to the forum.
Pretty funny you whine about us atheists and our anti christian rhetoric, when you christians have been totally mobilized to convert us for so long. We're not against you we're just trying to show you the true path.
I don't know how to define salvation, but I do believe the bible lays out a plan that would do humanity good. Do un to others as you would have done unto you works pretty well, but it is found in pretty much the same form in many other religious texts.
As to what I can do for humanity besides insulting Christians, I'd love to put my service on the record against yours or anybody else's. You want to bet on which one of us donates more to charity? And if thats not fair, how about on a percentage basis? How about more hours volunteering? How about just helping anyone who asks around here?

That said, I realize I have gone back on my word. I said to Frank I would hold back on the religious stuff, and obviously I have not done so. I apologize. My opinions are on record, and I am not going to change them, nor am I likely to change anyone else's.

"The Crusades, and the killing or converting of the indigenous peoples certainly were, but you guys seem to have stopped that for the most part."

I wasn't at the Crusades. My religious tradition was not at the Crusades. I am not Catholic, I am a a Protestant Evangelical of Anabaptist descent. The Catholics fought wars with the Protestants all over Europe, and even compelled my great grandfather to move from Italy to Switzerland. The Crusades were carried out by Catholics who were trying to take back the Holy lands from the Muslims who had invaded and wiped out that whole area. The Muslims struck first and stole lands from Christians and Jews who lived in that area for centuries, so I think if a modern equivalent were to occur, most of the world would side with the Crusaders. The atrocities that were committed along the way were obviously not reflective of Christianity since Christianity teaches strongly against those actions.

The atrocities that have occurred when the atheists came to power in China and Russia are well documented, but I am not going to pin those on you personally, because that is rude and unfair and even provocative, but of course you knew that. Just like when you call my metanarrative a 'mythology'. It seems like you are on a Crusade of your own, and anyone who points it out is a whiner. Believe me when I say that I have no problem standing toe to toe in a debate with you or any other atheist, but what is the point? An argument hurts the hearers. That is why I don't start threads on this site against atheism. In fact, nobody starts threads on this site against atheism. We are here to talk about investing, and frankly, I don't want to fight about that either. I have had spirited debates with you in the past about the direction of the market and the economy, and yet it never became uncivil because I don't dislike you, and also because my arguments were bourne out later and you converted to my way of thinking. I would rather you became a Christian in like manner, but if you aren't open to it, I see no reason to go into it. I would just appreciate it if you would stop insulting Christians and have a little respect, as I try to do for you.

That is all I have to say, I really don't want to argue.

[aiki14]

I have had spirited debates with you in the past about the direction of the market and the economy, and yet it never became uncivil because I don't dislike you, and also because my arguments were bourne out later and you converted to my way of thinking. I would rather you became a Christian in like manner, but if you aren't open to it, I see no reason to go into it. I would just appreciate it if you would stop insulting Christians and have a little respect, as I try to do for you.

That is all I have to say, I really don't want to argue.

I do not dislike you either, nor do I hold grudges.
I have posted my last on the topic, and I apologize for my disrespect.