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WestCoastWilson
08-10-2008, 08:59 PM
Hello Everyone,

Right now, I am trying to decide what broker company to do business with. So as I inch closer-and-closer to opening a broker account, I am still angry about the 3 trade per every 5 business day rule, because I want to do 4 trades per every 5 business days, but I do not want to be flagged as a ‘day trader’ (plus deal with the troubles that is guaranteed to come to me for being branded as a ‘day trader’). However I do not have 25K to keep in an account, nor do I want a Margin Account.

Now in review: If I buy ‘X’ amount of shares one day and then sell them all the next day, that still constitutes 2 trades in a 5 business day window. Yet if I buy ‘X’ amount of different shares either the same day that I sold the first ‘X’ amount of shares or buy some different shares the next day, basically I can not sell or buy any more shares until 5 business days later (because I would be at my 3 trade limit at that point). Is this correct? Yet I am STILL confused that if I buy shares one day and sell them the next day, then I would never have to worry about being branded as a ‘day trader’ as long as keep my shares overnight before selling them, yet the more that I read, it seems that unless I have 25K in my account, there is just no way to make more than 3 trades per every 5 business days (weather I keep my shares overnight and sell them the next day or not). GRRRRR!!!

Lastly, since I am Self Employed and have my own company (listed under a corporation), is it possible for me to open up an account (at one broker) using my business ID/tax ID number (instead of my social security number), and then also open up an account (at a different broker) using my social security number, thus allowing me to make my 4 trades per every 5 business days without being flagged as a ‘day trader’ or being caught and getting into even more trouble by the powers that be (if they find out that I am making 2 trades under my business account and 2 trades under my own social security number/personal account) every 5 business days? Also, for those that opened up a broker account under a business, did you have to provide your social security number as well?

Also, is it possible to be caught/get into any trouble by having 2 broker accounts at 2 different brokers or is your social security number linked to a bigger system out there (that is monitored 24/7 by the powers that be), so once they see that the same social security number comes up twice under different accounts at different brokers, they sound ALL of the bells and whistles, I get a knock on my front door, and then I get carted off to jail? LOL!!! Yet in all seriousness, what happens if you try to open and trade under two different broker accounts??? :confused:

Wilson

LongArm
08-11-2008, 11:21 AM
Now in review: If I buy ‘X’ amount of shares one day and then sell them all the next day, that still constitutes 2 trades in a 5 business day window. Yet if I buy ‘X’ amount of different shares either the same day that I sold the first ‘X’ amount of shares or buy some different shares the next day, basically I can not sell or buy any more shares until 5 business days later (because I would be at my 3 trade limit at that point). Is this correct?
No, it's NOT correct. As I explained in your previous thread, what you're describing here are not DAYTRADES. Again, a daytrade is the opening and closing of the same position on the same day. You can trade 2,463,854 times in 5 days if you like--as long as they're overnight trades--and you won't get labelled a pattern daytrader.

Example:

Monday you buy 100 XYZ.
Later that Monday, you sell 100 XZY.

That's ONE daytrade.

Tuesday you short 200 ABC.
Later that Tuesday, you cover 200 ABC.

That's TWO daytrades.

Wednesday you buy 100 XYZ.
Thursday you sell 100 XYZ.

That is NOT a daytrade, therefore it doesn't count against you. You still have 2 daytrades to go before reaching the threshold of 4 in 5 days and being labelled a pattern daytrader.

Does that make it any clearer?

...nor do I want a Margin Account.
Mind if I ask why not? As I also said in your previous thread, without a margin account you can run into 3-day settlement issues (and risk freeriding violations), which may actually be more of a hassle for you than the daytrading rules.

WestCoastWilson
08-11-2008, 01:18 PM
Here there LongArm. Thanks again for coming to my rescue. I appreciate you taking the time to go over this again with me one more time. It is just that when you read sooooo much about trading (i.e. over the past several months) from multiple sources, a Newbie can get totally overwhelmed 8O with so much information, thus causing one to forget important aspects of trades (because important notes are buried in a giant & thick notebook of notes), yet more often than not, one encounters so many conflicting stories about how some of these basic functions of trading works. For sure I do recall all of the information that you provided to me before on this issue, yet as I get nearer to getting ready to open my account, I am still getting conflicting stories about this issue. Yet at this point, since I do trust your judgement, I will try not to dwell upon this issue any longer. I will just bite the bullet and see what happens in my case. Again, since I want to ‘swing trade’, I guess the best thing I should do is buy my stock on one day, then put my desired ‘stop’ in place on the second day, to ensure that I never create a day trade (by the ‘stop’ possibly activating on the same day of purchase, thus automatically creating a ‘day trade’ transaction). So it sounds like as long as I keep my trade transactions like this (no ‘stops’ one the day of my stock purchase), then I should be good to go.

In regards to not wanting a Margin Account, I rather not go through the red tape to get one, because my personal credit is not in the very best of shape :vroam:, so I just rather not bother with the hassles with trying to set up a Margin Account. I my case, I think that it would be easier for me to have a ‘cash and carry’ gig. So I do not mind waiting the 3 days for my account to settle, because right now, if my trade strategy works the way I want, I only want to do 2 buys and 2 sells every 5 - 6 business days to start off with to see how things go.

As always LongArm, thanks a MILLION!!! :top:
Wilson

LongArm
08-11-2008, 03:29 PM
For sure I do recall all of the information that you provided to me before on this issue, yet as I get nearer to getting ready to open my account, I am still getting conflicting stories about this issue.
Oh, I have no doubt. Even on some financial websites, the definitions for pattern daytrader are very confusing. Some people are in serious need of writing classes.

But take it right from the horse's mouth (FINRA) (http://www.finra.org/InvestorInformation/InvestmentChoices/DayTradingInformation/p005906):

"The rules adopt a new term "pattern day trader," which includes any margin customer that day trades (buys then sells or sells short then buys the same security on the same day) four or more times in five business days, provided the number of day trades are more than six percent of the customer's total trading activity for that same five-day period."