Let's watch- As GM goes down the Tubes

[Survivor]

How pathetic. I grew up in Detroit and always loved General Motors cars they used to be works of art as many of us surely have picked a style that was appealing. During the 40's,50's,60's,and up until the late 70's Gm did build some beautiful automobiles. What the hell happened?. EPA, Federal Govern-mint, NHTSA, Arab oil embargos, These guys make my guts turn. Cars are so f-in ugly you would not want to park that peice of S*it in your driveway.With All the quality flaws you can only lease a car due to there is no long range ownership. The folks that made GM #1 must be sick to their guts. When the new cars came out it used to be exciting-now you cant tell one year from the next,they are look like rubber baby buggy bumper cars,disgusting. They let the Japanease beat them by rebadging Toyotas?. I'm tired of the mis-management, poor designs, piss poor quality, Buy outs and generally shi**y products. GM committed suicide,too bad. I finally give up on them. The billions in losses.worthless stock- Ford and Chrysler used to be good cars too. I am living in the past as I watch this generation totally destroy the US auto manufacturing companys. Cant figure it out? Lets rebadge some more foreign cars. Shove them were global excuses up your Hershey highway.Global is another term for we cant build nothing right,And High tech means it is beyond servicing. I never thought I'd have to say this in my lifetime but American car companies do suck. R.I.P. GM.

[Luc1Grunt]

How pathetic. I grew up in Detroit and always loved General Motors cars they used to be works of art as many of us surely have picked a style that was appealing. During the 40's,50's,60's,and up until the late 70's Gm did build some beautiful automobiles. What the hell happened?. EPA, Federal Govern-mint, NHTSA, Arab oil embargos, These guys make my guts turn. Cars are so f-in ugly you would not want to park that peice of S*it in your driveway.With All the quality flaws you can only lease a car due to there is no long range ownership. The folks that made GM #1 must be sick to their guts. When the new cars came out it used to be exciting-now you cant tell one year from the next,they are look like rubber baby buggy bumper cars,disgusting. They let the Japanease beat them by rebadging Toyotas?. I'm tired of the mis-management, poor designs, piss poor quality, Buy outs and generally shi**y products. GM committed suicide,too bad. I finally give up on them. The billions in losses.worthless stock- Ford and Chrysler used to be good cars too. I am living in the past as I watch this generation totally destroy the US auto manufacturing companys. Cant figure it out? Lets rebadge some more foreign cars. Shove them were global excuses up your Hershey highway.Global is another term for we cant build nothing right,And High tech means it is beyond servicing. I never thought I'd have to say this in my lifetime but American car companies do suck. R.I.P. GM.

Lexus, Infinity, and Acura.....no worries man. Highly dependable, sleek, and virtually maintenance free. Oh yeah, and the ever present Jeep Cherokee in the driveway for getting where I need to go and pulling the American made bass boat. Quality matters. Brand loyalty requires loyalty in return.

How about those massive union wages and benefits? That surely did not contribute to the quality and cost did it? Unions back their candiates each year (guess which letter is next to their name). What did you get from it? Same thing the welfare recipients got....empty promises of freebies. Poor slobs. Shackled by "hope" and "entitlements".

Break free dude....don't die bitter.

[freakscene]

(guess which letter is next to their name). What did you get from it? Same thing the welfare recipients got....empty promises of freebies. Poor slobs. Shackled by "hope" and "entitlements".

Break free dude....don't die bitter.


:biggrin:

i love hearing people from the detroit michigan area complain about their region, especially when most of them continue voting for the same party thats basically responsible for its demise..............

[reef]

:biggrin:

i love hearing people from the detroit michigan area complain about their region, especially when most of them continue voting for the same party thats basically responsible for its demise..............


Especially ones that bitch and complain about eveything like a little girl.

Oh yeah, and the ever present Jeep Cherokee in the driveway for getting where I need to go and pulling the American made bass boat. Quality matters. Brand loyalty requires loyalty in return.



I have to agree. Jeep is the chit! I owned a Camanche for several years and it was tough as nails. Drove it thru flooded waters of Panama where the water line was above the bottom of the window. It did finally die on me once i got to the front of my home, but i pulled out the air cleaner and the next morning it start no problem! Panama is a place that if you didnt have a car accident while stationed there, you didnt drive in Panama. Me? i had about 7 accidents and the last one was a fricken doozy. Nailed a brick wall down the side of a 50' embankment moving about 60 MPH. The only thing that came at me in the cabin was my stereo.

It never broke down on me and maintenance was easy.

I loved that Jeep. :top:

[Survivor]

:biggrin:

i love hearing people from the detroit michigan area complain about their region, especially when most of them continue voting for the same party thats basically responsible for its demise.............. That absolutley makes no sense. What great state do you live in? Do something to help. Buy an American car from here. Help our own people. Our governor acts like a brain dead Republican. The Bush man has handed our country the biggest deficit in history. That would make any Republican proud. A true conservitive. I would not vote for either one if you paid me. All our manufacturing went overseas to China,and Japan and lucky for Mexico.Thanks to high taxes and NAFTA and corporate greed,and the miracle of cheap labor. Like folks had a choice about whos gonna Screw us next and try to stop it.Good Luck, You blame Democrats,you have that luxury. Look what curious George has done. Bankrupting a country,or at least he's trying- Lies and cover-ups, WMD'S, Sold us to China- although the US hates commies, Loves the terror card to soak more money out of this country and into Iraq. I'd bet he moves there to help control oil after his term. Power hungry.You control oil you control the world. His hands arent clean either. I know so many people that admitted voting for Bush was the worst thing they could have did. He is like any other Politician,Tell them all the lies you want to hear.Then they turn on you. When you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Anybody could "F" this country up for less than the $400,000 grand a year we are paying for that dude. If you were that much of a screw up you would have lost your own job a long time ago. :beerglass:

[bigzip]

Let's keep in mind the Democrat Bill Clinton is the one who brought us NAFTA.

Secondly, I can assure you all UAW members do not vote democratic simply because that's what their leadership wants.

The US auto companies provided a great living for many, many families throughout the country, especially here in Michigan. The folks suffering here now IN GENERAL have not taken initiative to get an education or move to industry that is more stable i.e. healthcare, and have been blindsided by the global economy. The culture of the area is what has to change. I work at a Tier 1 supplier in Detroit. On a daily basis, 12-18% of our UAW workforce does not show up for work. Some days it can go as high as 35%. How many people can keep their gig not showing up for work repeatedly? These are only some of the problems the OEM's and major suppliers are facing with a US UAW workforce making around $67/hour all in. These things are changing with every passing day and new contract. GM is not going to "go down the tubes" - they are doing well globally where they aren't hog tied by the ridiculous entitlement contracts previous management has agreed to. I find it disturbing that anyone would cheer for US industry and the people it supports to collapse.

[englishman26]

$67/hour all in.


And here in lies the key. It's just cheaper to make cars elsewhere so all those other car companies can spend more of their revenue on designing better and more reliable cars.


Designing cars is highly skilled work that could be done in the US. Building them is not.

[netwrangler]

Let's keep in mind the Democrat Bill Clinton is the one who brought us NAFTA.
And the car giants in Mexico have really hurt Detroit, right?

Just to put things into perspective...
About 60 years ago the MG-TC appeared in the US. This car was followed by the TD, the TF, the VW-bug, the Renault-Dauphine, the Triumph TR-2 & TR-3, the Austin Healey 100, and various other imports offering performance, economy, or some combination of the two.

It was in the '60's that Datsun produced their Fairlady. It was in the '70's before the Honda Civic became the preferred 'company car' to check out for a day at the US Integrated Oil Company where I worked. The Japanese came late to the party.

The first gas crunch came in '73-74, which is just after the formation of OPEC. Porsche made the headlines then as being one of the few cars that could travel from LA to San Francisco on one tank of gas. At the same time, the Big-Three marketing folks were telling us, "There has never been a better time to buy a big car."

Ford, GM, and Chrysler had over a half-century to get the message and adapt. Instead, they preferred to stay with the horse they were riding until they rode that horse into the ground. As a moderate, I recognize that both Management and Labor jointly own the blame.

Attempts to blame this on NAFTA, however, are ludicrous.

[Survivor]

Especially ones that bitch and complain about eveything like a little girl. Broke Back Keyboard...



I have to agree. Jeep is the chit! I owned a Camanche for several years and it was tough as nails. Drove it thru flooded waters of Panama where the water line was above the bottom of the window. It did finally die on me once i got to the front of my home, but i pulled out the air cleaner and the next morning it start no problem! Panama is a place that if you didnt have a car accident while stationed there, you didnt drive in Panama. Me? i had about 7 accidents and the last one was a fricken doozy. Nailed a brick wall down the side of a 50' embankment moving about 60 MPH. The only thing that came at me in the cabin was my stereo.

It never broke down on me and maintenance was easy.

I loved that Jeep. :top: I just leased a 2008 Jeep Liberty and I like it!!!

[netwrangler]

For those born after 1960 [most reading this, I'll wager] it may come as a great surprise that the Ford T-bird was equal to, or better than, the Chevrolet Corvette in the '50's, when the cars first came out.

I remember going to a car show where Ford was showing a two-seat 'concept car' that was [in the vernacular of the day] totally bitchin'. This was the pre-cursor of the Mustang — and was far better in 'concept' than it ever was in production.

It is clear to me that there were folks designing for the Big-Three that had great ideas. But those ideas were quashed as being 'too radical' and 'out of touch with reality'.

In my view, this is an archetypical example of the failure of US Corporations to be able to plan beyond the horizon of bonus plans and stock options. Like the boiling frog story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog), if you stay focused on the short term, and lose focus on the long term, you could die.

[Survivor]

Let's keep in mind the Democrat Bill Clinton is the one who brought us NAFTA.

Secondly, I can assure you all UAW members do not vote democratic simply because that's what their leadership wants.

The US auto companies provided a great living for many, many families throughout the country, especially here in Michigan. The folks suffering here now IN GENERAL have not taken initiative to get an education or move to industry that is more stable i.e. healthcare, and have been blindsided by the global economy. The culture of the area is what has to change. I work at a Tier 1 supplier in Detroit. On a daily basis, 12-18% of our UAW workforce does not show up for work. Some days it can go as high as 35%. How many people can keep their gig not showing up for work repeatedly? These are only some of the problems the OEM's and major suppliers are facing with a US UAW workforce making around $67/hour all in. These things are changing with every passing day and new contract. GM is not going to "go down the tubes" - they are doing well globally where they aren't hog tied by the ridiculous entitlement contracts previous management has agreed to. I find it disturbing that anyone would cheer for US industry and the people it supports to collapse. Tell that to a friend who lost his job at Fords after 12 years-Wixom plant buy out. GM 74,000 buy out offers. Nissans,Mercury Villagers and rebadging Toyotas,GM loves that, Ford and Mazda, just proves the U.S. Automakers gave up. If they were any good they would not rebadge foreign cars and put their name plates on them. I just got back from Pennsylvania and Arizona I could not beleive all the foreign cars I saw. I thought I was in Japan.Toyota stock over 100 a share.GM,Ford not that great. Hell I bought a U.S. flag and when I got home and opened the wrapper it said made in China,W.T.F.?

[englishman26]

Hell I bought a U.S. flag and when I got home and opened the wrapper it said made in China

Indeed and exactly!

[bigzip]

Attempts to blame this on NAFTA, however, are ludicrous.[/QUOTE]

By "this" I'm assuming you mean the demise of the US auto industry, and I certainly agree with you.

Mexican corn farmers probably think otherwise after we flooded their markets with subsidized US corn.

On a slightly different subject, NAFTA and outsourcing in general are a good way to get away from workers rights and environmental laws of our country IMO. People get killed working (forging press and misplaced human = bad) and we can just get the next eager $2/hr laborer in there without consequence or regard for the dead guy and his family - "The Jungle" by Sinclair comes to mind. I think the agreements might be a lot more "fair" if they included the same worker protections. I am no bleeding heart to be sure, but I think we treat animals a helluva lot better here than human life around the world.

[Survivor]

[QUOTE=reef;94332]Especially ones that bitch and complain about eveything like a little girl.

Broke Back Keyboard...Looking for a Mountain....

I

[bigzip]

Tell that to a friend who lost his job at Fords after 12 years-Wixom plant buy out. GM 74,000 buy out offers. Nissans,Mercury Villagers and rebadging Toyotas,GM loves that, Ford and Mazda, just proves the U.S. Automakers gave up. If they were any good they would not rebadge foreign cars and put their name plates on them. I just got back from Pennsylvania and Arizona I could not beleive all the foreign cars I saw. I thought I was in Japan.Toyota stock over 100 a share.GM,Ford not that great. Hell I bought a U.S. flag and when I got home and opened the wrapper it said made in China,W.T.F.?

So your friend had to walk away with $70,000, $100,000? Or was it $35,000 and 4 yrs. of college tuition paid for? I have little sympathy. I am on the non bargaining unit side of the argument and lost my job two years ago. I didn't get a buyout. I bought a case of beer and pack of Marlboro's on my way home and proceeded to tie one on. I got it out of my system. The next week I found another job and then went back to school for a Master's degree. People need to take responsibility for their own livelihood and stop relying on "the government" or "Ford's" to take care of them. That is the culture in Detroit I was referring to.

[freakscene]

Attempts to blame this on NAFTA, however, are ludicrous.

Hi Net,

I cant speak for the poster who typed that, but when I read it I considered it more of a direct response to survivor's other nonsense about the American worker being destroyed.


People need to take responsibility for their own livelihood and stop relying on "the government" or "Ford's" to take care of them. That is the culture in Detroit I was referring to.


Amen.
Me too.
And congratulations on the Masters !

[Survivor]

So your friend had to walk away with $70,000, $100,000? Or was it $35,000 and 4 yrs. of college tuition paid for? I have little sympathy. I am on the non bargaining unit side of the argument and lost my job two years ago. I didn't get a buyout. I bought a case of beer and pack of Marlboro's on my way home and proceeded to tie one on. I got it out of my system. The next week I found another job and then went back to school for a Master's degree. People need to take responsibility for their own livelihood and stop relying on "the government" or "Ford's" to take care of them. That is the culture in Detroit I was referring to.

He will make it fine as a skilled tradesman in another company somewhere. Preston Tucker said in 1954 who would ever think of buying our products from our former enemies. After he was brought up on phoney sec violations by a senator from this state who got pissed he opened his car factory in Chicago, I believe in the USA, take care of our own people and support our country by buying our own products. If you can find them.

[Survivor]

Hi Net,

I cant speak for the poster who typed that, but when I read it I considered it more of a direct response to survivor's other nonsense about the American worker being destroyed.





Amen.
Me too.
And congratulations on the Masters ! Freakscene,You need to come to Michigan and look around.Everyday in the news it's buy outs and supplier problems all the way to Canada. auto companies are in trouble here.You can shove nonsense where the sun dont shine.

[netwrangler]

Attempts to blame this on NAFTA, however, are ludicrous.

By "this" I'm assuming you mean the demise of the US auto industry, and I certainly agree with you.

Mexican corn farmers probably think otherwise after we flooded their markets with subsidized US corn.

On a slightly different subject, NAFTA and outsourcing in general are a good way to get away from workers rights and environmental laws of our country IMO. People get killed working (forging press and misplaced human = bad) and we can just get the next eager $2/hr laborer in there without consequence or regard for the dead guy and his family - "The Jungle" by Sinclair comes to mind. I think the agreements might be a lot more "fair" if they included the same worker protections. I am no bleeding heart to be sure, but I think we treat animals a helluva lot better here than human life around the world.Well, yes, I did think we were talking about the auto industry here — given the title of the thread and all.

Putting on my 'economist' hat, I can cite chapter and verse as to why Free Trade takes advantage of 'competitive advantage' to benefit all participants.

And, yes, I am familiar with Upton Sinclair's book, The Jungle, that he published in 1906, about the horrors of the meat packing industry. My father was active in his support for the musicians union in Hollywood in the 20's and 30's. As a boy, I discovered that our family library had the full collection of Sinclair's Lanny Budd series. I read them all before I was in 7th grade.

But lumping NAFTA, all outsourcing, and The Jungle together as a piece so misses the issue that it saddens me.

Is all 'free trade' good? Of course not.
Is all 'outsourcing' bad? Of course not.

If the United States is to retain its position as an economic [and hopefully moral] leader of the world, we need to learn to recognize and deal with nuance. 'We' means our government leaders. But, in this democracy we live in, 'we' also means the electorate. Democracy works only when we have an informed electorate — one that can appreciate the nuance in issues and approach solutions with an open mind.

The post that I first responded to in this thread suggested that GM was going down the tubes because of NAFTA.

Horsefeathers!

It's time that we looked more carefully at why we, the United States, lost our leadership in automobile manufacturing. We need to understand what we did and what we failed to do that caused us to lose our position. We need to take responsibility for our own actions. Without an honest self-appraisal, we have little hope of recovery.
Blaming a trade acronym is just too convenient, and not at all helpful.

[Survivor]

The point is... I lost my job and need to find another. As I get ready to find a job I put on my made in Taiwan clothes, Made in Veitnam shoes, Turn on my made in Mexico T.V., Sony,Zenith,Sharp. Walk out to my driveway and start up my Honda or Toyota,Volkswagen,BMW- Listen to my Japanease radio, Salute my made in China U.S. flag, Get nailed by foreign overpriced fuel at Citgo,and watch the decline of the dollar, U.S. factories out sourcing jobs and closing plants,and delphi and others filing bankruptcy as my brother informs me that his company HY-Craft engineering lost an overhead console contract for U.S. cars to China.NAFTA?. Because their cheaper. Well that is a nice slice of humble pie. So where is loyalty? traded off for cheap labor. Can you help me find a job? No. But you can invest in China and Mexico to make money. awesome.... :idea:

[reef]

[quote=reef;94332]Especially ones that bitch and complain about eveything like a little girl.

Broke Back Keyboard...Looking for a Mountain....

I


Good luck finding your mountain.

[netwrangler]

The point is... I lost my job and need to find another. As I get ready to find a job I put on my made in Taiwan clothes, Made in Veitnam shoes, Turn on my made in Mexico T.V., Sony,Zenith,Sharp. Walk out to my driveway and start up my Honda or Toyota,Volkswagen,BMW- Listen to my Japanease radio, Salute my made in China U.S. flag, Get nailed by foreign overpriced fuel at Citgo,and watch the decline of the dollar, U.S. factories out sourcing jobs and closing plants,and delphi and others filing bankruptcy as my brother informs me that his company HY-Craft engineering lost an overhead console contract for U.S. cars to China.NAFTA?. Because their cheaper. Well that is a nice slice of humble pie. So where is loyalty? traded off for cheap labor. Can you help me find a job? No. But you can invest in China and Mexico to make money. awesome.... :idea:Survivor, sorry to hear that you are 'between positions' at the moment.

That happened to me too, a while back.
Made me realize that unless I had a skill-set that was competitive in the world economy, that I was, well, in a world of hurt.

Same principles applied to my employer. No sense working for a company that isn't competitive. A company like that can't offer you job security.

We live in a world economy. Don't see that changing. I do believe in building environmental standards and anti-sweatshop rules into trade agreements. These are modern additions to the anti-dumping rules of classic trade theory. Those are tough issues, though — tough to negotiate, tough to enforce.
Well, no one promised that it would be easy.

And, yes, when I needed to add to my skill-set I did. Learned how to set up and run a Local Area Network. Changed from Marketing to Tech, and went back to work.

I think I was lucky that it happened to me fairly early in my career.
It happened to my Dad much later on in his. For him it wasn't 'cheap labor' but 'technology' that changed his life. His whole industry changed.
But he adapted. He learned to work with the technology.
At the end of his career he was teaching others how to use the technology.

In no way do I want to minimize the trauma that is caused by unexpected job loss. For most it feels like someone changed the rules in the middle of the game. For some families, it is the end.
Drill down through the aggregate data of macro-economics and you find some very human drama.
It doesn't do much good to tell residents of mill-town whose mill has closed that 'they should have seen it coming.'
And the smug expressions on the faces of those who have 'secure' jobs vanish when it's their industry that changes, and their mill that shuts down.

But once that is acknowledged, the question remains, "What do we do about that?"

For the individual worker, the answer is 'adapt'. And some will do that better than others.
For the firm, the answer is 'improve profitability'.
From a public policy standpoint, the answer is 'facilitate change'.
I'm sure this last statement will get some hoots and hollers from both left and right. Good, we don't want this forum to be dull.

The OP blended irony and sarcasm well in choosing a title for this thread. So, should we just watch as GM goes down the tubes? No way! The world market is telling us that we have mis-allocated some of our resources. We need to fix that. This is an opportunity to re-allocate those resources and make them more productive.

[BuyOnDips]

Buy American! Buy Toyota! :)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-02-27-toyota-plant_x.htm

[Survivor]

Buy American! Buy Toyota! :)

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-02-27-toyota-plant_x.htm Exactly Right, The Japanease are smart. Ford anounced another round of employee buy-outs today, I used to think buying a foreign car was like kicking the Statue of Liberty in the nuts. LOL. See the USA in your Chevrolet. A Early sixties jingle by Dinah Shore.

[Survivor]

Survivor, sorry to hear that you are 'between positions' at the moment.

That happened to me too, a while back.
Made me realize that unless I had a skill-set that was competitive in the world economy, that I was, well, in a world of hurt.

Same principles applied to my employer. No sense working for a company that isn't competitive. A company like that can't offer you job security.

We live in a world economy. Don't see that changing. I do believe in building environmental standards and anti-sweatshop rules into trade agreements. These are modern additions to the anti-dumping rules of classic trade theory. Those are tough issues, though — tough to negotiate, tough to enforce.
Well, no one promised that it would be easy.

And, yes, when I needed to add to my skill-set I did. Learned how to set up and run a Local Area Network. Changed from Marketing to Tech, and went back to work.

I think I was lucky that it happened to me fairly early in my career.
It happened to my Dad much later on in his. For him it wasn't 'cheap labor' but 'technology' that changed his life. His whole industry changed.
But he adapted. He learned to work with the technology.
At the end of his career he was teaching others how to use the technology.

In no way do I want to minimize the trauma that is caused by unexpected job loss. For most it feels like someone changed the rules in the middle of the game. For some families, it is the end.
Drill down through the aggregate data of macro-economics and you find some very human drama.
It doesn't do much good to tell residents of mill-town whose mill has closed that 'they should have seen it coming.'
And the smug expressions on the faces of those who have 'secure' jobs vanish when it's their industry that changes, and their mill that shuts down.

But once that is acknowledged, the question remains, "What do we do about that?"

For the individual worker, the answer is 'adapt'. And some will do that better than others.
For the firm, the answer is 'improve profitability'.
From a public policy standpoint, the answer is 'facilitate change'.
I'm sure this last statement will get some hoots and hollers from both left and right. Good, we don't want this forum to be dull.

The OP blended irony and sarcasm well in choosing a title for this thread. So, should we just watch as GM goes down the tubes? No way! The world market is telling us that we have mis-allocated some of our resources. We need to fix that. This is an opportunity to re-allocate those resources and make them more productive. Actually, I am employed, I should have said that this was a story I read somewhere about a dis-placed autoworker looking for a job. I am very sorry for the mis communication. Thank you. I have been an auto mechanic for the last 25 years. I figured with the great Yankee know how there would be busted cars everywhere-That is job security. I knew the auto factories were going down a long time ago. I just miss the old days. God,am getting old. LOL.

[bigzip]

But lumping NAFTA, all outsourcing, and The Jungle together as a piece so misses the issue that it saddens me.

If I made you sad I apologize ;), although I was only pointing out these conditions do exist in the 21st century in much the same way. I'll keep the lumps out of my next "piece"

[netwrangler]

If I made you sad I apologize ;), although I was only pointing out these conditions do exist in the 21st century in much the same way. I'll keep the lumps out of my next "piece"Sometimes seeing similarities is key. Sometimes it's seeing the differences.

I believe that, in this case, it is the latter that is important.

And, by the way, whacha think of Lanny Budd?

[bigzip]

Sometimes seeing similarities is key. Sometimes it's seeing the differences.

I believe that, in this case, it is the latter that is important.

And, by the way, whacha think of Lanny Budd?

Well, my point (or intent) was to suggest although NAFTA isn't solely responsible for US auto industry problems, it is also not the panacea for all three countries involved as advertised. I said The Jungle "came to mind" with regard to the specific example of a worker being killed as I mentioned. I did not lump it in to paint with a broad brush the entire agreement or all plants in MX or China. I stand by my statement that IN GENERAL the agreement allows corporations to skirt environmental and workers rights' issues.

I have an evolving and sometimes contradictory view of the entire issue. As a white collar worker in the auto industry, I have seen firsthand the inefficiency and entitlement mentality of our unionized workforce. I have also seen disregard for the worker as a human being and the environment in the quest for ever increasing profit. I lost my job at a company that was wholly unprepared for the quick changes brought about by this agreement (to what degree I'll never know) and high labor costs. I don't know what your point of view is (I believe you've said you work in the oil industry) but from mine the benefits of the agreement have not panned out and I am more disgusted by corporate control of our government over time. Cui bono? Unfortunately not most people, IMO.

And no, I haven't read the Lanny Budd novels, The Flivver King is the only other Sinclair book I've read. I do enjoy the technique of writing from a historical perspective. Whatcha think of "A People's History of the US" by Zinn?

[netwrangler]

Well, my point (or intent) was to suggest although NAFTA isn't solely responsible for US auto industry problems, it is also not the
panacea for all three countries involved as advertised. I said The Jungle "came to mind" with regard to the specific example of a worker being killed as I mentioned. I did not lump it in to paint with a broad brush the entire agreement or all plants in MX or China. I stand by my statement that IN GENERAL the agreement allows corporations to skirt environmental and workers rights' issues.

I have an evolving and sometimes contradictory view of the entire issue. As a white collar worker in the auto industry, I have seen firsthand the inefficiency and entitlement mentality of our unionized workforce. I have also seen disregard for the worker as a human being and the environment in the quest for ever increasing profit. I lost my job at a company that was wholly unprepared for the quick changes brought about by this agreement (to what degree I'll never know) and high labor costs. I don't know what your point of view is (I believe you've said you work in the oil industry) but from mine the benefits of the agreement have not panned out and I am more disgusted by corporate control of our government over time. Cui bono? Unfortunately not most people, IMO.

And no, I haven't read the Lanny Budd novels, The Flivver King is the only other Sinclair book I've read. I do enjoy the technique of writing from a historical perspective. Whatcha think of "A People's History of the US" by Zinn?Sounds to me like we are much closer on this issue than I would have thought at first.

I certainly agree that NAFTA does not live up to all of the wonderful promises ballyhoo'd for it originally.
I also agree that "the inefficiency and entitlement mentality of our unionized workforce" is clearly a contributing factor to the decline of the Big Three.
Moreover, I too, "have also seen disregard for the worker as a human being" as corporations reorganized in the name of efficiency and profit.

Your mention of the latter two points leads me to believe that we both have seats at the same discussion table. I believe you appreciate the nuance of this issue. It's more than just NAFTA. Both Management and Labor need to revise their strategies. The 'solution' is not obvious, and that's why we are sitting at a discussion table.

Personal experience:
===============
As "Manager of Planning" for Corporate Information Services (CIS) I was part of the "re-org" team six times out of seven. Even the seventh time, when I was not part of the team and 'took a package' instead, I was given the courtesy of making that 'choice' more than a year before the package was officially defined. That gave me almost 18 months to prepare for the transition.
Note: I did not have the 'official package' presented to me a year before others knew about it. I did have a boss who asked me a hypothetical, "If the deal is relocate or retire, which would you do?"
I said, "Retire."
He said, "Can't say for sure, but that's how I see the choice working out."

===============
The one thing that surprised me when I had Board Room access was that I did not hear a general disregard for the environment. I think that Oil Company management was ahead of the curve here. The Oil Companies are the LST's [Large Slow Targets] for the Greens. I believe that Management had come to the conclusion that meeting environmental requirements made more sense than flaunting them — especially since the demand for energy products [gasoline, diesel, heating oil] continued to grow and that most environmental costs could be passed on the consumer.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Auto Industry has a different attitude.

As I see it, the basic difference between the two industries on this issue was willingness to spend time and money opposing environmental regulation as opposed to conforming to it.

The American Auto Industry fought increases in Café standards tooth and nail in order to protect their Light-Truck and SUV cash cows.
The American Oil Industry fought to open new areas [e.g. ANWAR in Alaska] to exploration and drilling. But these battles for the Oil industry were about profit, whereas these battle for the Auto Industry about survival.

===============
You finessed the 'Lanny Budd' question very well.
I admit that was a trap.

In the years going in to WWII, Upton Sinclair was a socialist sympathetic to Russia. [Let the record show that a "socialist sympathetic to Russia" is several positions to the left of what OTF member 'freakscene' would classify as a [c/C]ommunist today.] The Lanny Budd novels of Upton Sinclair were well written and very entertaining. At the same time, they constituted an apologetic for Socialism and Stalin's Russia.

I really did read these books before I was in 7th grade. Hey, they were page-turners. After I started talking about them, my parents gave me some political perspective on the works.

My take today: Well written, but slanted. Actually, that's not too far from a description of a number of posts in this thead.

===============
As far as Zinn and his history is concerned, you have me there.

I did a Google there and came back with enough results to generate some interest.

Can you give me any clues?

[Goldman Slacks]

The two biggest problems with U.S. auto companies IMO are the Unions and
entitlement.

UNIONS - for every employed worker at a U.S. based auto company they are paying for 3 retired workers. They should have negotiated out of pension plans years ago and gone with 401k's like most other companies. The benefits alone add about $3k on the cost of a $25k car. Toyota does not pay this. Some suggest the government add these costs to foreign competition to level the field.

I worked for an auto supplier and once a week I had to go to the Hydramatic plant in Willow Run,Mi (GM Transmissions) The first time there I drove inside the building I would see all these newspapers opened up - way up in the parts racks. I soon realized these were people sleeping and they used the papers so the lights wouldn't bother them while they slept. After a few weeks I learned about all the scams. One group of workers would have their boss punch them in/out and in exchange they would pay the boss 25% of their paycheck to stay home. Some would stay home for weeks at a time. If they did get caught it usually meant the boss recieved 3 days off without pay.

The wages for the hourly workers got way out of hand. $30.00 hr plus Optical/Dental/Pension to sweep floors... at most companies sweeping the floors is something one does while they are either going to school or use the job to get a foot in and move up to something else. A lot of these jobs were never intended to be careers but the Unions turned them into high paying hourly career jobs with more job security than a Civil Service worker.

ENTITLEMENT- this is a sad situation and a lot of it has been perpetuated buy the Unions and society in general, and it runs all the way up the ladder. Ask not what you can do to help your company but what the company can do for you is what it's about, and this mentality has saturated the big 3. What happend to the Lee Iacocca's? He worked for a dollar a year as the CEO to bring Chrysler back from b/k in the late 70's. Now these CEO's and upper mgt. get millions no matter how much money they cost the companies. There is no accountability - who ever the person was at Pontiac who signed off on the production of the AZTEK should be a household name.

A word on NAFTA - not much of a threat anymore since the State Dept. has Mexico so far down the list of places for U.S. companies to locate now. They are going back to tourism since they now admit that for some reason they can't cast a quality GM engine block.

Disclosure: Silverado/48 Anglia/62 Impala SS/Toyota

[bigzip]

Sounds to me like we are much closer on this issue than I would have thought at first.

I certainly agree that NAFTA does not live up to all of the wonderful promises ballyhoo'd for it originally.
I also agree that "the inefficiency and entitlement mentality of our unionized workforce" is clearly a contributing factor to the decline of the Big Three.
Moreover, I too, "have also seen disregard for the worker as a human being" as corporations reorganized in the name of efficiency and profit.

Your mention of the latter two points leads me to believe that we both have seats at the same discussion table. I believe you appreciate the nuance of this issue. It's more than just NAFTA. Both Management and Labor need to revise their strategies. The 'solution' is not obvious, and that's why we are sitting at a discussion table.

Personal experience:
===============
As "Manager of Planning" for Corporate Information Services (CIS) I was part of the "re-org" team six times out of seven. Even the seventh time, when I was not part of the team and 'took a package' instead, I was given the courtesy of making that 'choice' more than a year before the package was officially defined. That gave me almost 18 months to prepare for the transition.
Note: I did not have the 'official package' presented to me a year before others knew about it. I did have a boss who asked me a hypothetical, "If the deal is relocate or retire, which would you do?"
I said, "Retire."
He said, "Can't say for sure, but that's how I see the choice working out."

===============
The one thing that surprised me when I had Board Room access was that I did not hear a general disregard for the environment. I think that Oil Company management was ahead of the curve here. The Oil Companies are the LST's [Large Slow Targets] for the Greens. I believe that Management had come to the conclusion that meeting environmental requirements made more sense than flaunting them — especially since the demand for energy products [gasoline, diesel, heating oil] continued to grow and that most environmental costs could be passed on the consumer.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Auto Industry has a different attitude.

As I see it, the basic difference between the two industries on this issue was willingness to spend time and money opposing environmental regulation as opposed to conforming to it.

The American Auto Industry fought increases in Café standards tooth and nail in order to protect their Light-Truck and SUV cash cows.
The American Oil Industry fought to open new areas [e.g. ANWAR in Alaska] to exploration and drilling. But these battles for the Oil industry were about profit, whereas these battle for the Auto Industry about survival.

===============
You finessed the 'Lanny Budd' question very well.
I admit that was a trap.

In the years going in to WWII, Upton Sinclair was a socialist sympathetic to Russia. [Let the record show that a "socialist sympathetic to Russia" is several positions to the left of what OTF member 'freakscene' would classify as a [c/C]ommunist today.] The Lanny Budd novels of Upton Sinclair were well written and very entertaining. At the same time, they constituted an apologetic for Socialism and Stalin's Russia.

I really did read these books before I was in 7th grade. Hey, they were page-turners. After I started talking about them, my parents gave me some political perspective on the works.

My take today: Well written, but slanted. Actually, that's not too far from a description of a number of posts in this thead.

===============
As far as Zinn and his history is concerned, you have me there.

I did a Google there and came back with enough results to generate some interest.

Can you give me any clues?

I appreciate the insightful and honest response. I'm sure we agree on many facets of this discussion. The scales are tipping in one direction for me regarding NAFTA. I am struggling to see the benefits of the agreement, and I'm sure it has to do with the point of view I have living in the Detroit area. I think Survivor would agree that we are experiencing rapid change here, and its downright uncomfortable and trying for all involved. With that said, I also believe in adapting to the environment and not blaming it on one policy or decision.

I agree with your assessment of the environmental issues relating to oil/auto industries. Extreme competition drives us to cut corners - who wouldn't break a rule if it means surviving? Unfortunately I believe there is an easy out for many companies to escape litigation here. Clean, green technologies are expensive and in the end might not eliminate pollution altogether. Solution >> Foreign operation without risk of litigation and without the costs of clean technology, ergonomics, etc. I don't think a strong argument can be made that China for instance has a healthy environment.

Lanny Budd: I saw that coming a mile away Net :wink: They sound interesting, I'll have to add them to the long list of books I haven't read yet.

"A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn is an interesting book of American History written more or less from the point of view of those that lost the battles along the way. It came to mind when I was reading some of Sinclair's socialistic views. "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins is another great book very relevant to ethical questions raised here.

This discussion will be fresh on my mind when I'm in Mexico next week, thanks for that.